Old 12-20-2015, 11:49 AM   #81
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Well yeah, it's a forum revolving around a production tool. For a more "content" oriented forum I guess you'd have to look elsewhere. Or at least in the REAPER music/collab subforum. Although I think that section is a ghost town.
Yeah, but it's not purely that. Mainly it's home recording, and a lot of that appeals to people who are actually recording themselves.

I wonder how many Reaper users are purely technical engineers/mixers ?
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Old 12-20-2015, 12:25 PM   #82
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There's no such thing as 'better' in art. It's just whether you happen to like it or not.
That sounds like a reasonable statement, but it doesn't mean much in real people's experience.
Ok, "better" is pretty subjective, but it's not purely arbitrary.
Surely there are underlying reasons whether humans "happen to like it or not"?
You don't just happen to like things for no reason, presumably.

So "better" isn't a universal, but it's connected to quality of experience, and how well something accomplishes a function.

If we expect more than the superficial, then "better" is something with layers, some depth and nuance.
If we want hedonistic dance music, some music is certainly better than others.


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Yes, hence my comment about 'closing the mind' - hedonism - appealing to the pleasure/chemical side of enjoyment rather than the more thoughtful (having to invest time and multiple listens to 'understand') side. Not necessarily a criticism - an observation just as much.
Isn't that exactly what EDM and mix-based music does?
I can't imagine a better description of a lot of modern dance music than "pleasure/chemical/hedonistic"

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I think mixing has become more and more about details simply because we now have the tools to do it - not for any other reason whatsoever.
Really?
People don't often spend a lot of time doing things simply because the tools are there.
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Old 12-20-2015, 12:42 PM   #83
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I wonder how many Reaper users are purely technical engineers/mixers ?
Some of us get paid for what they do
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Old 12-20-2015, 12:57 PM   #84
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I wonder how many Reaper users are purely technical engineers/mixers ?
That's me Apart from my own plinking I don't do any recording at all.
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Old 12-20-2015, 01:09 PM   #85
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That sounds like a reasonable statement, but it doesn't mean much in real people's experience.
Ok, "better" is pretty subjective, but it's not purely arbitrary.
Surely there are underlying reasons whether humans "happen to like it or not"?
You don't just happen to like things for no reason, presumably.

So "better" isn't a universal, but it's connected to quality of experience, and how well something accomplishes a function.
I stand by the statement currently. It's something I end up discussing a lot with various people. I like the 'connected to quality of experience' thing you said though.

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Isn't that exactly what EDM and mix-based music does?
I can't imagine a better description of a lot of modern dance music than "pleasure/chemical/hedonistic"
Absolutely. And it all came from those seeds sown in the 60's

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People don't often spend a lot of time doing things simply because the tools are there.
In the case of mixing I really think they do. Mainly because of plugin/DAW marketing and the prevalence of endless options + endless internet tutorials/pro mix tips/whatever other bs someone calls their questionable youtube channel lol. And also because of the way recording has changed - 'fixing it in the mix' is just how things are now - things like dynamic eq's, multiband comps, all other seemingly complex variations thereof that are marketed as flashy gui 'essential' processors are really just fixer-upper plugins that were far less necessary when people spent more time on getting the recording right.
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Old 12-21-2015, 06:37 AM   #86
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I'd like to hear more about those theories.
Are you sure? It gets political and it has to do with energy. In short I think the money system (which is just a means to transfer human energy) - which is based on always giving MORE BACK to the system - credit - is at the root of all the worlds problems including aging - aging being the result of a long term 'grinding down' process - always having to give more back to the system - always having to live with a degree of fear - stress etc. (hence the rise of stress related illnesses too) - fostering a 'tired' and cynical outlook on everything - which is possibly at the root of the concept of nostalgia (nostalgia - an 'easy way out' utility that the brain has whenever it doesn't feel like putting the work in to find new things to experience).. I could go on lol.. Apart from being someone who does a lot of thinking and questioning I also worked as a nurse for 12 years in pretty much all areas of healthcare (I was an agency nurse so I just went where the work was) which gives you such an incredible insight and knowledge into how the body responds to too much stress.
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Old 12-21-2015, 09:41 AM   #87
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I think you'll find that people always grown old and "ground down", way before the "money system" existed.
That's just a fact of nature.

People tend to think more conservatively with age, but not always, and even so it's not always a bad thing; because they also have the advantage of experience (whether they make good use of it or not), and the reverse can be true of younger people.

Nostalgia doesn't have to be blinding - in small doses it can be positive or even neccessary, giving a sense of continuity and purpose.

I'm not a very nostalgic person - and even though music is a big part of my life, I wouldn't volunteer to go back to the 70s

But to reject the very notion that aspects of life and of musical experience could actually be richer in the past seems odd.

That, to me, could easily be a psychological protection mechanism, just as much as overblown nostalgia is.

You said something that stood out earlier - "it's not healthy to think that way".
That kind of proscription always makes me wary - and I wondered if you might be talking as much to yourself as to us?

Anyway, despite being nearly 50 I like to explore and examine things too!....so it's something to think about
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Old 12-21-2015, 09:48 AM   #88
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I think you'll find that people always grown old and "ground down", way before the "money system" existed.
That's just a fact of nature.

People tend to think more conservatively with age, but not always, and even so it's not always a bad thing; because they also have the advantage of experience (whether they make good use of it or not), and the reverse can be true of younger people.

Nostalgia doesn't have to be blinding - in small doses it can be positive or even neccessary, giving a sense of continuity and purpose.

I'm not a very nostalgic person - and even though music is a big part of my life, I wouldn't volunteer to go back to the 70s

But to reject the very notion that aspects of life and of musical experience could actually be richer in the past seems odd.

That, to me, could easily be a psychological protection mechanism, just as much as overblown nostalgia is.

You said something that stood out earlier - "it's not healthy to think that way".
That kind of proscription always makes me wary - and I wondered if you might be talking as much to yourself as to us?

Anyway, it's something to think about
Exactly - it's all stuff to think about. And yes, I've been very prone to extended periods of looking backwards - usually in harder times - when I'm emotionally weaker - I guess I associate nostalgia with comfort and one seeks comfort much moreso in times of worry and stress.

I absolutely agree that similar circumstances existed before capitalism and there are many arguments to say that we have greatly benefited from it (it is, after all, an extremely robust system of economy). But that's not to say we can't rise above it at some point and greatly extend our lifespans simply by the removal of certain key factors.
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Old 12-21-2015, 10:12 AM   #89
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It's been interesting to read your pov - but at the risk of annoying people who're looking for the latest compressor I'll mention one last thing.

There was a study on nostalgia done relatively recently at Southampton university.
They more or less concluded that nostalgia (in reasonable doses) was beneficial rather than enfeebling.
There's actually a test called the Southampton Nostalgia Scale

That's beneficial with regard to the individual of course, and says nothing on their objectivity ....about how universally good The Doors might be, for example
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Old 12-21-2015, 10:54 AM   #90
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I think you'll find that people always grown old and "ground down", way before the "money system" existed.
That's just a fact of nature.
And our life span was somewhere around 40 until 1800.

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Nostalgia doesn't have to be blinding - in small doses it can be positive or even neccessary, giving a sense of continuity and purpose.
I agree. IMHO from an observational standpoint a person crossing the line between useful and living in the past is often noticeable, conversely a healthy amount of nostalgia may sometimes be simply reflecting on valuable lessons learned in order to continue to benefit from them and/or pass them along.

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Anyway, despite being nearly 50 I like to explore and examine things too!....so it's something to think about
Same here. I'm always on some form of some cutting edge - it keeps me relevant and dynamic vs static.
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Old 12-21-2015, 12:02 PM   #91
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Are you sure? It gets political and it has to do with energy. In short I think the money system (which is just a means to transfer human energy) - which is based on always giving MORE BACK to the system - credit - is at the root of all the worlds problems including aging - aging being the result of a long term 'grinding down' process - always having to give more back to the system - always having to live with a degree of fear - stress etc. (hence the rise of stress related illnesses too) - fostering a 'tired' and cynical outlook on everything - which is possibly at the root of the concept of nostalgia (nostalgia - an 'easy way out' utility that the brain has whenever it doesn't feel like putting the work in to find new things to experience).. I could go on lol.. Apart from being someone who does a lot of thinking and questioning I also worked as a nurse for 12 years in pretty much all areas of healthcare (I was an agency nurse so I just went where the work was) which gives you such an incredible insight and knowledge into how the body responds to too much stress.
It makes sense to me.
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Old 12-21-2015, 12:07 PM   #92
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The best results (to sound like in the late 60s or early 70s) I get
by wearing some flowers in my hair haha
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Old 12-21-2015, 12:21 PM   #93
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The best results (to sound like in the late 60s or early 70s) I get
by wearing some flowers in my hair haha
Nah, that's what you should wear if you're going to San Francisco
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Old 12-21-2015, 12:57 PM   #94
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It doesn't matter what time we are living in. Nothing can substitute for a good song or good music. It doesn't matter when or with what it is written, the only thing that matters is good songwriting.
This is where most bands fall down. You can be the best musicians in the world but without the music, its going nowhere.

I was born in 1966. I grew up in the 70's and from 1972 onwards I have a great memory of this time. Nearly all of it formed me as a musician.
I became a professional when I was 18, signed a contract then toured and recorded extensively. This was in the 1980's onwards.

Trust me when I say this is a great time for musicians and songwriters to be living and working in.
The only way to record demos in the 70's-80's-90's was with a Portastudio which sounded mostly like crap, or buy paying for a demo studio, which was expensive and sounded mostly like crap.

Now I can sit at home and score an orchestral piece which 90% of listeners will think is a real orchestra. I can play on virtual vintage equipment that is almost or totally indistinguishable from the real thing.

Be happy, Write good music. Live. Enjoy.

This is a great time.
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Old 12-21-2015, 05:54 PM   #95
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What I mean is that the notion of 'it was better back then..' is completely false and it's not healthy to think that way.
Completely disagree ... from what small parts of the '70s I can remember. We've been giving the "future" and the here and now a chance for quite some time, and it smells of near complete failure:

Best tools ever now but producing very little memorable stuff

Barely any harmony in modern music

It's all bad poetry with boring sampled drum beats

People actually refer to RAP as a musical genre! (read comment directly above this one)

there's plenty more that could be said, as we all know.

I can wait while you all grab buckets before hearing more about what's wrong with music today

.. but, in general, most of it lacks all the things that used to be essential parts of what most people considered great music ... melody, harmony, ground-breaking rhythms ... improvisation, and just about everything else.
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Old 12-22-2015, 02:27 AM   #96
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Completely disagree ... from what small parts of the '70s I can remember. We've been giving the "future" and the here and now a chance for quite some time, and it smells of near complete failure:

Best tools ever now but producing very little memorable stuff

Barely any harmony in modern music

It's all bad poetry with boring sampled drum beats

People actually refer to RAP as a musical genre! (read comment directly above this one)

there's plenty more that could be said, as we all know.

I can wait while you all grab buckets before hearing more about what's wrong with music today

.. but, in general, most of it lacks all the things that used to be essential parts of what most people considered great music ... melody, harmony, ground-breaking rhythms ... improvisation, and just about everything else.
Today'smusic = Justin Bieber then ?
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Old 12-22-2015, 02:32 AM   #97
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Completely disagree ... from what small parts of the '70s I can remember. We've been giving the "future" and the here and now a chance for quite some time, and it smells of near complete failure:

Best tools ever now but producing very little memorable stuff

Barely any harmony in modern music

It's all bad poetry with boring sampled drum beats

People actually refer to RAP as a musical genre! (read comment directly above this one)

there's plenty more that could be said, as we all know.

I can wait while you all grab buckets before hearing more about what's wrong with music today

.. but, in general, most of it lacks all the things that used to be essential parts of what most people considered great music ... melody, harmony, ground-breaking rhythms ... improvisation, and just about everything else.
Hehe you're truly stuck in the past Tele - You sound like my dad lol Ready for your pipe and slippers?
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Old 12-22-2015, 03:48 AM   #98
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After a hour of various era radio songs my standout picks were/are Gary Puckett, and Meghan Trainor. Meghan is current but kinda retro and refreshing, very real.
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Old 12-22-2015, 04:48 AM   #99
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.... The Sex Pistols don't count as punk.
Please explain.
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Old 12-22-2015, 04:53 AM   #100
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Please explain.
Malcolm McLaren was a hack and was in it just for the money.
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Old 12-22-2015, 05:42 AM   #101
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Malcolm McLaren was a hack and was in it just for the money.
That much is certainly true although John Lydon turned out to be a thoroughly good egg. PIL are nothing short of awesome.
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Old 12-22-2015, 05:49 AM   #102
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Malcolm McLaren was a hack and was in it just for the money.
Punk is full of contradictions.
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Old 12-22-2015, 05:54 AM   #103
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That much is certainly true although John Lydon turned out to be a thoroughly good egg. PIL are nothing short of awesome.
Which still proves my point, as soon as McLaren was out of the equation Rotten could focus on making music and not trying to sell a mediocre band who relied only on shock values. There's nothing punk in being a strung out junkie acting like an idiot on television. Punks don't do tv anyway.

You want a real punk band, go listen to some Crass.
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Old 12-22-2015, 05:56 AM   #104
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Punk is full of contradictions.
You certainly have something to add to back up your statement.
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Old 12-22-2015, 06:24 AM   #105
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It doesn't matter what time we are living in. Nothing can substitute for a good song or good music. It doesn't matter when or with what it is written, the only thing that matters is good songwriting.
This is where most bands fall down. You can be the best musicians in the world but without the music, its going nowhere.

I was born in 1966. I grew up in the 70's and from 1972 onwards I have a great memory of this time. Nearly all of it formed me as a musician.
I became a professional when I was 18, signed a contract then toured and recorded extensively. This was in the 1980's onwards.

Trust me when I say this is a great time for musicians and songwriters to be living and working in.
The only way to record demos in the 70's-80's-90's was with a Portastudio which sounded mostly like crap, or buy paying for a demo studio, which was expensive and sounded mostly like crap.

Now I can sit at home and score an orchestral piece which 90% of listeners will think is a real orchestra. I can play on virtual vintage equipment that is almost or totally indistinguishable from the real thing.

Be happy, Write good music. Live. Enjoy.

This is a great time.
This.

From what I can see we are living in the time of the very best music ever made.
Is the best music being made mainstream? That depends on where you live and what your preferences are. I expect the uncontacted peoples of the world who are only using skin drums, bamboo pipes and animal mimicry are probably pretty content with their musical palete but given access to the complete history of recorded and written music they would most likely fully embrace it and be very hard pressed to say that their's was better.

I don't think it's historically untrue to say that the more people who have access to art and to its means of production then the better that art will become - though of course the bar of expectation always increases, hence nostalgia as a defence mechanism.

Just an idea anyhow.

Personally, I prefer the music that is of the now: being the sum of the past with the technology and knowledge of the present, looking to the future.
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:07 AM   #106
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You certainly have something to add to back up your statement.
Punk is, among other things, anti establishment. However, without the recording industry establishment at the time, the Sex Pistols would not have found a voice. Like it or not, Mclaren was Lydon's door into the establishment. There is some irony there which which makes the story more compelling, I think.
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:30 AM   #107
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Punk is, among other things, anti establishment. However, without the recording industry establishment at the time, the Sex Pistols would not have found a voice. Like it or not, Mclaren was Lydon's door into the establishment. There is some irony there which which makes the story more compelling, I think.
The Sex Pistols do count as punk in my book - absolutely they do. Punk is just as much about shock value as it is anti-establishment ideas and it is full of contradictions too - that's all part of it. Being encouraged to consider and think 'outside' the system will always lead to contradicting ideas and thoughts.
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:31 AM   #108
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Punk is, among other things, anti establishment. However, without the recording industry establishment at the time, the Sex Pistols would not have found a voice. Like it or not, Mclaren was Lydon's door into the establishment. There is some irony there which which makes the story more compelling, I think.
Let me put it in other words : McLaren wanted to make money on the punk movement, he found a few bad boys that secretly craved the rock star lifestyle and they went for his masquerade. Nobody opened any door for anybody, they just tried to wrap up something that was already at the time a bad cliche and sell it as much as it was possible. The Sex Pistols were a product of a perverted entrepreneur who later tried to call it art. He even went on to say that he wanted to use those people. The credibility of both McLaren and the members of the Sex Pistols was disputed many many many many times, but it ALWAYS goes down to the fact that it was just a tasteless scam to make some fast cash. Those people never were and never will be representatives of what the punk movement was/is about. Everything that followed the path of the Sex Pistols, every band that tried to benefit from their "legacy" is just a follow up for that masquerade.

The true punk scene is too far away from the mainstream medias for people not involved in it to understand the concept...

Too much TV makes you say stupid sh*t like "The Sex Pistols were a punk rock band."
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:37 AM   #109
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The true punk scene is too far away from the mainstream medias for people not involved in it to understand the concept...
I hate to say it but everyone I've ever met (and believe me I know a lot of people who were big into the punk scene through my past life as a bmx'er in the 90's ) who gets into this 'true punk' idea goes too far into exactly what punk shouldn't be - elitist and excluding. We even had a name for them at gigs we went to - the 'Punk Rock Elite' and they were always the same personality types.
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:41 AM   #110
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Completely disagree ... from what small parts of the '70s I can remember. We've been giving the "future" and the here and now a chance for quite some time, and it smells of near complete failure:

Best tools ever now but producing very little memorable stuff

Barely any harmony in modern music

It's all bad poetry with boring sampled drum beats

People actually refer to RAP as a musical genre! (read comment directly above this one)

there's plenty more that could be said, as we all know.

I can wait while you all grab buckets before hearing more about what's wrong with music today

.. but, in general, most of it lacks all the things that used to be essential parts of what most people considered great music ... melody, harmony, ground-breaking rhythms ... improvisation, and just about everything else.
That's pop entertainment (with musical elements) you're describing.
It's always been there and always been a bigger industry than music as art in itself.

I think the difference is that musicians used to be required to produce pop entertainment. And they (as musicians do) managed to always sneak bits of art into the pop drivel.

Now the pop drivel can be produced without hiring musicians. And the electronic result is good enough for the target audience.

There's still music being made. And actually more people are able to record their art and put it out in the world now thanks to modern tools and communication.

I think the glass is more than half full here.
So what if the pop entertainers are doing their thing too.
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:42 AM   #111
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it's always funny to watch people argue over what's "punk." now THAT's some stupid shit. Ironic stupid shit.
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:48 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by bladerunner View Post
I hate to say it but everyone I've ever met (and believe me I know a lot of people who were big into the punk scene through my past life as a bmx'er in the 90's ) who gets into this 'true punk' idea goes too far into exactly what punk shouldn't be - elitist and excluding. We even had a name for them at gigs we went to - the 'Punk Rock Elite' and they were always the same personality types.
Well I'm sorry to break it to you, but I'm PRE and I'll stay that way.

Punk is not just music, it's a certain way of percieving life that the Sex Pistols never promoted. Being just anti-establishement is easy. You just have to say that the people who are holding the reins at the moment are bad and yelling "NO Future!".

Punk is caring about human rights.
Punk is caring about the environement.
Punk is caring about animals (and not eating them or using them as commodities).
Punk is seeing past appearences and seeing people for who they truely are.
Punk is fighting racism, bigotry, homophobia, sexism.
Punk is the D.I.Y approach.
Punk are initiatives like "Food Not Bombs" (go check it out, really heart-warming stuff).

Do you still think the Sex Pistols were punks ?
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:50 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by bladerunner View Post
the 'Punk Rock Elite'
The irony there being that in an effort to be truly anti-establishment, they form their own establishment, complete with rules about who may or may not be considered punk, and guidelines about how one may or may not conduct one's anarchy.
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:51 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
it's always funny to watch people argue over what's "punk." now THAT's some stupid shit. Ironic stupid shit.
Exactly, exactly, exactly. Hence the Punk Rock Elite moniker we came up with lol.
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:54 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Hoodee View Post
Well I'm sorry to break it to you, but I'm PRE and I'll stay that way.

Punk is not just music, it's a certain way of percieving life that the Sex Pistols never promoted. Being just anti-establishement is easy. You just have to say that the people who are holding the reins at the moment are bad and yelling "NO Future!".

Punk is caring about human rights.
Punk is caring about the environement.
Punk is caring about animals (and not eating them or using them as commodities).
Punk is seeing past appearences and seeing people for who they truely are.
Punk is fighting racism, bigotry, homophobia, sexism.
Punk is the D.I.Y approach.
Punk are initiatives like "Food Not Bombs" (go check it out, really heart-warming stuff).

Do you still think the Sex Pistols were punks ?
This may be what punk evolved into, but it's not how it started out. I don't think you can just rewrite history because it doesn't suit a later reality.
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:54 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Time Waster View Post
The irony there being that in an effort to be truly anti-establishment, they form their own establishment, complete with rules about who may or may not be considered punk, and guidelines about how one may or may not conduct one's anarchy.
Hehe, yep
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:59 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Time Waster View Post
This may be what punk evolved into, but it's not how it started out. I don't think you can just rewrite history because it doesn't suit a later reality.
Rewriting it, funny

Go and check your facts, mate, there's a lot of stuff you don't know about (probably because you don't give a damn).

Here, check some false history

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Old 12-22-2015, 10:05 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoodee View Post
Well I'm sorry to break it to you, but I'm PRE and I'll stay that way.

Punk is not just music, it's a certain way of percieving life that the Sex Pistols never promoted. Being just anti-establishement is easy. You just have to say that the people who are holding the reins at the moment are bad and yelling "NO Future!".

Punk is caring about human rights.
Punk is caring about the environement.
Punk is caring about animals (and not eating them or using them as commodities).
Punk is seeing past appearences and seeing people for who they truely are.
Punk is fighting racism, bigotry, homophobia, sexism.
Punk is the D.I.Y approach.
Punk are initiatives like "Food Not Bombs" (go check it out, really heart-warming stuff).

Do you still think the Sex Pistols were punks ?
lol ... the punk's rulebook !...

(or nostalgic misapprehension?)
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Old 12-22-2015, 10:08 AM   #119
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Looks like we are back in 'No true Scotsman' territory again. It's music and it's people making it, the first mistake is thinking any genre is anything beyond pure entertainment. Those making it may believe otherwise and that they are shaping the world into a better place, but in reality it's just entertainment.
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Old 12-22-2015, 10:12 AM   #120
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One of my favourite bits in Return Of The Living Dead at the 2 minute mark in this video.. lol

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