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View Poll Results: Does Reaper need more MIDI love?
Yes, and I use MIDI a lot 111 76.55%
No, and I use MIDI a lot 13 8.97%
Yes, and I don't use MIDI much or at all 11 7.59%
No, and I don't use MIDI much or at all 10 6.90%
Voters: 145. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-27-2010, 10:37 PM   #1
DarthFader
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Default Does Reaper need more Midi Love?

Please poll HONESTLY on the selections.

If you don't use midi much or at all, please select 3 or 4.

If you do use midi a lot, please select 1 or 2.

Voting 1 or 2 if you don't use midi a lot will cause terminal brain cancer.

What does Yes or No mean?

YES --> Reaper needs more love, more features, more attention than it has been getting, and MIDI features need more priority than they've been getting

NO --> Midi in Reaper is getting the appropriate amount of attention relative to other features and doesn't need to be upped on the priority list

DF

Last edited by DarthFader; 06-28-2010 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:06 AM   #2
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it doesn't need more midi features IMO, but solid basic ones.

when i was a cake pro audio and later a sonar user i never had problems using midi for programing and aditing drums, but with reaper i always have ramdom bugs.

ramdom means theys are not easy to reproduce, sometimes they happen, sometimes not, what doesn't mean that they are not there.
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:47 AM   #3
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reaper is archaic in midi.

1-treating midi as seperate entities that must be imported/exported instead of integrated like other sequencers is a bad idea. integrate midi seamlessly like in sonar & cubase.

2-midi needs it's own track type instead of hammering it into the audio track type. it's pounding a square peg into a round hole. this must include selection boxes for choosing midi channel, bank, preset, etc for each track.

3-event list, the traditional kind. must have.

The one thing i love about midi in reaper is entering variable length notes with the mouse. Going back to sonar, for example, where each mouse click enters only a preset value (quarter note, for example) is so tedious that i can't stand it.

there's been so much work in all the other areas of reaper, i think it's about time midi got a major face lift, because midi has fallen way behind reaper's audio capabilities.
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Old 06-28-2010, 06:07 AM   #4
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Welcome to the forums!

Quote:
Originally Posted by osranakurwa View Post
1-treating midi as seperate entities that must be imported/exported instead of integrated like other sequencers is a bad idea. integrate midi seamlessly like in sonar & cubase.
Did you try Reaper already? By default it uses in-project MIDI like all the other sequencers, you have to set it deliberately to save .mid files.

Quote:
Originally Posted by osranakurwa View Post
2-midi needs it's own track type instead of hammering it into the audio track type. it's pounding a square peg into a round hole. this must include selection boxes for choosing midi channel, bank, preset, etc for each track.
That's what many people coming from other DAWs think first. Few of them think the same way 3 months later (using much hardware synths puts you in the risk group).

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Originally Posted by osranakurwa View Post
3-event list, the traditional kind. must have.
Event list, the traditional kind. It has. (Alt+3 in the MIDI Editor or View menu)
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Old 06-28-2010, 06:13 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osranakurwa View Post
reaper is archaic in midi.

1-treating midi as seperate entities that must be imported/exported instead of integrated like other sequencers is a bad idea. integrate midi seamlessly like in sonar & cubase.

2-midi needs it's own track type instead of hammering it into the audio track type. it's pounding a square peg into a round hole. this must include selection boxes for choosing midi channel, bank, preset, etc for each track.

3-event list, the traditional kind. must have.

The one thing i love about midi in reaper is entering variable length notes with the mouse. Going back to sonar, for example, where each mouse click enters only a preset value (quarter note, for example) is so tedious that i can't stand it.

there's been so much work in all the other areas of reaper, i think it's about time midi got a major face lift, because midi has fallen way behind reaper's audio capabilities.
Hi Osranakurwa and welcome to Reaperland!

You can drag and drop MIDI files like any other file into Reaper or load them, using the media browser. If you have checked "MIDI items (in project, recommended)" in "Options -> Preferences -> Media -> MIDI" MIDI data are included in the project.

I'm not fond of the idea to have dedicated MIDI tracks, because this would result in being bothered all the time with dialogs like "You can't put this here" and "You can't put that there." like e.g. in Cubase. It's just a way of working and keep everything arranged.





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Old 06-28-2010, 06:17 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steindork View Post
Welcome to the forums!



Did you try Reaper already? By default it uses in-project MIDI like all the other sequencers, you have to set it deliberately to save .mid files.



That's what many people coming from other DAWs think first. Few of them think the same way 3 months later (using much hardware synths puts you in the risk group).

Event list, the traditional kind. It has. (Alt+3 in the MIDI Editor or View menu)
The event list is still not there. Its getting a lot better. Did you try Cakewalks event list yet? Not Sonar. Cakewalk Pro audio 9 for instance.
There's an event list ey
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Old 06-28-2010, 06:19 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osranakurwa View Post
reaper is archaic in midi.

1-treating midi as seperate entities that must be imported/exported instead of integrated like other sequencers is a bad idea. integrate midi seamlessly like in sonar & cubase.

2-midi needs it's own track type instead of hammering it into the audio track type. it's pounding a square peg into a round hole. this must include selection boxes for choosing midi channel, bank, preset, etc for each track.

3-event list, the traditional kind. must have.

The one thing i love about midi in reaper is entering variable length notes with the mouse. Going back to sonar, for example, where each mouse click enters only a preset value (quarter note, for example) is so tedious that i can't stand it.

there's been so much work in all the other areas of reaper, i think it's about time midi got a major face lift, because midi has fallen way behind reaper's audio capabilities.
Sure you're not missing something?
1) MIDI doesn't need to be im- nor exported with Reaper (as long as you don't need ghost-copies, but that's another story)

2) I whole heartedly disagree there. I won't ever want to go back to special MIDI track types. You can have all the selection boxes you asked for right on the tracks using plugs like ReaControlMIDI.

3) There is an event list, just a bit clumsy yet. It's one of the areas that need love, but it exists. One of it's downsides is that it can't be viewed together with the Piano Roll view but is an alternative view to it (view menu of the Piano Roll window).


Of course I voted yes for even more MIDI love, but you can't say they are not doing stuff about it. The last major improvement has been CC editing in the Piano Roll and has been fairly recently.

One thing I don't like about Reaper's MIDI is that it's too item-centric. I'd like to see a more track based editing without having to glue items into one big one (while not losing item based editing, of course). This includes a better seeking-back of events on playback start and loop.
Also I'd like to see much more actions and an easier approach for 3rd party extensions for MIDI editor actions (that seems to be really difficult as of now, so that even the SWS extension guys don't do them).
Plus a much better representation of MIDI routing (visible indication of sends streaming MIDI) in the mixer and the routing matrix.


Ever so often, the Dork has the faster trigger finger .

EDIT: Duh! Everyone is faster than me today. In the time I wrote the last sentence two more people answered. Should not eat icecream while posting .
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Old 06-28-2010, 06:27 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazed View Post
There's an event list ey
Okayokay not saying it's the most brillant event list on earth (I don't care since I never use these things anyway and I kinda grew up with event lists, maybe that's why) but at least there is one.

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Should not eat icecream while posting .
Not if you love your keyboard or use a laptop.
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Old 06-28-2010, 06:52 AM   #9
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Implementing my deceptively simple Feature Request would get Reaper a lot of the nice MIDI functions of other MIDI sequencers. Logical Editor/.CAL scripting type functions using JS.....

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=2667
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:52 AM   #10
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http://www.toofiles.com/en/oip/image...miditrack.html

Here's the sonar midi track view. note all the things i want to know about a track are right there, NOT HIDDEN IN SOME MENU. I know what my I/O, volume, channel, bank, preset instrument name, pitch shift, time, reverb & chorus settings, etc. are at a glance.

It peeves me to no end not to see that info in reaper. WTF, am I just supposed to remember these settings for each of the typical ~20 track in every project? ...each time I load it? Am I supposed to mind-numbingly click on 10 different menus for each track to see this info? The purpose of computers is to eliminate repetitive work, not create it, and reaper creates the tedium of needless clicking by not showing this info. In fact, not only is reapers approach here amateurish, it's hostile. I can not work like this. PERIOD. After I create the basic midi in reaper (thanks to its brilliant variable length mouse click/drag input), I then have to export the midi, and import it into sonar and work with it there because all the rest of the things i want to do with the midi is uber painful in reaper.

If sonar incorporates the var len midi input, then I'm done with reaper and I'll never use it again because I hate programs that hide info from me & make me struggle to see it. On the other hand, if reaper incorporates these basic standard universal paradigms then I'm done with sonar and I'll never use that again. Right now I'm stuck between 2 sequencers and reaper is losing, badly. Sonar's workflow is far far far friendlier because it doesn't treat me like it knows better than I do about what I want to see & how I want to see it. I've used reaper since the start and it started all full of promise, but now years later promise is a joke, let's get some results. And hammering a midi track into an audio track is aggravatingly stupid.
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:04 AM   #11
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One track type for every type of data .... what does that remind me of ... oh yeah, now i remember.......


Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!
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sieg heil!



One law for the lion and the ox is oppression.
[ William Blake ]
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:26 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osranakurwa View Post
One track type for every type of data .... what does that remind me of ... oh yeah, now i remember.......

Wow, that's your third post ever to this forum?

Welcome to the forum... you obviously know absolutely nothing about the people in the Reaper community. Good luck getting helpful responses here, and enjoy your Sonar I know for myself this will be the last and only time I ever respond to anything you post. Personally, I can't imagine a more offensive post.

Back on topic, I'd love to see some smoother MIDI support, and I'm confident that it will come as the community is able to clearly define the best ways of accomplishing new things through healthy discussions. But Reaper is such a fantastic program that it's very hard to criticize much at all. I usually find out that whatever I don't like is because I wasn't used to Reaper's way of doing something yet, in which case I end up liking the Reaper way better, or I find out there's a setting someplace to make it look/act how I want, or in the extreme case I find the developers to be very responsive to requests from the community of users. Of course, not everyone fits into that community so well, but there are other options for them...

Last edited by BrianW; 06-28-2010 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:38 AM   #13
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Zero to Godwin in 3 posts. That must be a new record!
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:06 AM   #14
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Zero to Godwin in 3 posts. That must be a new record!
Good lord. :rolls eyes:
Good call schwa!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:31 AM   #15
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[Steindork hugs the MIDI Editor]
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:38 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osranakurwa View Post
http://www.toofiles.com/en/oip/image...miditrack.html

Here's the sonar midi track view. note all the things i want to know about a track are right there, NOT HIDDEN IN SOME MENU. I know what my I/O, volume, channel, bank, preset instrument name, pitch shift, time, reverb & chorus settings, etc. are at a glance.
Don't discount this. Cakewalk has this midi track thing nailed for years already. If we improve it, that's cool but until then we have to admit it's the better way to skin a cat!.
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:41 AM   #17
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Taking the risk, though I begin hope you leave anyway:

Here's how a track header to control a channel of a GM MIDI device looks like in my projects:

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Old 06-28-2010, 10:46 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
Implementing my deceptively simple Feature Request would get Reaper a lot of the nice MIDI functions of other MIDI sequencers. Logical Editor/.CAL scripting type functions using JS.....

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=2667
I'd prefer to see MIDI in Reaper develop along the lines of Logic (as I remember it around v 6 or 7 anyway) with very clear selection boxes and tweakable values, such as pitch shift +- a certain number. This clarity leads to better music more quckly in my experence.

Cal scripts and deeply buried plugins do nothing for creativity in my opinion. After a MIDI or audio performance is down, then you can take your time if you like and perfect using these tools - the brain isn't really in that time slows down place anymore, where the best musical ideas happen.

In short, when it comes to MIDI, keep it as simple and intuitive as possible! Please...
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:02 AM   #19
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Nicely done, gofer. I'd fit that under the "...wasn't used to Reaper's way of doing something yet..." category. It's so user-configurable that by asking around we usually find out that just about anything we want can be set up, then saved as a default or easily-recallable template. And the things that can't be done are so often implemented when they're requested and discussed. I'd always vote for things to be as user-configurable as possible rather than have the software decide for me what a midi track or audio track (or aux track or mono track or stereo track) must always be configured a particular way, but too much user configurability risks lengthening the learning curve and alienating impatient people.

Seems like it'd be pretty easy to create a built-in "Midi track" template similar to what gofer created until the other editor changes can be solidified. Like we currently have "Insert - virtual instrument on new track" that automatically creates a new track with the VSTi inserted & all your routing set up for you according to the particular instrument's available outputs (which are also things we can do manually, but are much easier with the built-in "macro"). Maybe there could be an "Insert - New midi track" that implements a pre-configured header like gofer's?

Gofer, maybe you could write a quick guide on how you set that up and post it in an appropriate section? Or even have it added to the wiki...
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:03 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Taking the risk, though I begin hope you leave anyway:

Here's how a track header to control a channel of a GM MIDI device looks like in my projects:

That's nice. I'll try and duplicate that. Or ... How did you do that?

and ... Taking the risk, though I begin hope you leave anyway: ?? what do you mean by that?
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:04 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steindork View Post
That's what many people coming from other DAWs think first. Few of them think the same way 3 months later (using much hardware synths puts you in the risk group).
I disagree. I've been using reaper for more than 3 months and strongly feel that midi needs its own track type.

The ReaControlMIDI is just a bunch of fiddly nonsense.

If you had to use a ReaControlAudio to do basic audio manipulation, (volume, pan, etc) you'd see just how annoying it really is

Having the track be an audio+midi track the way it is ONLY makes sense for some VSTi scenarios; for hardware synths it's a total joke imho

DF
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:05 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Taking the risk, though I begin hope you leave anyway:

Here's how a track header to control a channel of a GM MIDI device looks like in my projects:

Volume 12927 ??? Impressive !!. Let the loudness wars continue. Pan 8191? 200Ft Acoustic something or other?
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:11 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by DarthFader View Post
That's nonsense in my book. I've been using reaper for more than 3 months and strongly feel that midi needs its own track type.

The ReaControlMIDI is just a bunch of fiddly nonsense.

If you had to use a ReaControlAudio to do basic audio manipulation, (volume, pan, etc) you'd see just how annoying it really is

DF
Perfectly valid argument (and funny too)

I like one track type. It's awesome. But ReaControlMIDI is also very ReaInconvenient I agree. It *is* possible to have better integration of MIDI features to the one-track-type paradigm. There's no real obstacle to a universal track to also have MIDI controls alongside audio ones, without the need for plugins and complicated layering of windows. It's just not been done yet in Reaper. But it is possible.
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:12 AM   #24
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Volume 12927 ??? Impressive !!. Let the loudness wars continue. Pan 8191? 200Ft Acoustic something or other?


this is getting too funny
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:17 AM   #25
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+1 for MIDI Love

My biggest ongoing pet peeve over the last 2.5 years is the inability to do simple quantization without having to open the MIDI editor.


PLEASE
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:20 AM   #26
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Quote:
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I disagree. I've been using reaper for more than 3 months and strongly feel that midi needs its own track type.

The ReaControlMIDI is just a bunch of fiddly nonsense.
... but it's available nevertheless. I'm pretty sure (from hanging around this forum and Reaper for a little more then three months, although I count myself a newbie still) that all this stuff will be implemented eventually and will integrate into the current track-paradigm very nicely. I'll even hazard a guess that when we get there, the chances are that Reaper's implementation is going to be the smarter way to do it (I see that with quite a lot of stuff that is implemented already).
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:28 AM   #27
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if reaper starting using specific track types that would suck. midi love shouldn't be turned into "lets make the program less innovative".....
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:28 AM   #28
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Amazed, that comment wasn't directed at you, don't worry. I meant that guy with the Adolf quote.

Some of the numbers are not 0-127, because they take the LSB message into account (eg: Volume can be transmitted as MSB/LSB pair using CC7 and CC39 in combination). That gives you a resolution of 16384 steps. Pan is set to center (16384/2 -1, because it starts at zero). Of course it's easy to let Reaper show the 0-127 values you are used to (tick "Raw mode" in ReaControlMIDI), but for some reason I happen to like it this way. Don't know what's so funny there, actually.


Screenshot shows a track with ReaControlMIDI plus JS:IX/MIDI_Tool II with the track control knobs I've chosen.
The whole shebang is loaded either as a track template or as FX chain with all track controls ready to go, depends on when I decide to need the controls (which is almost never...). I don't even really notice there are plugins on the track.
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:35 AM   #29
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Quote:
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Screenshot shows a track with ReaControlMIDI plus JS:IX/MIDI_Tool II with the track control knobs I've chosen.
The whole shebang is loaded either as a track template or as FX chain with all track controls ready to go, depends on when I decide to need the controls (which is almost never...). I don't even really notice there are plugins on the track.
Sure if you only have a few tracks and a giant monitor... Try doing that on a netbook or laptop....

Whereas programs like Cubase can do all of that and more while taking up very few pixels to do it

DF
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:39 AM   #30
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Zero to Godwin in 3 posts. That must be a new record!
Well, I certainly don't condone the adolf reference from that poster but....

I think it shows how negatively people react to the way midi is set up in reaper.

Look, when you get in a car, you want a steering wheel and a gas pedal.

People don't want something "innovative and different" compared to what they are used to driving.

People could replace the steering wheel with a joystick, and universally people would be unhappy with it, especially the vast majority of traditional car drivers.

That's exactly what its like using Midi in reaper.

It's completely different, and it's also slower and more tedious to work with than the standard steering wheel.

I'm pretty tired of hearing how Reaper's steering wheel is different and that's somehow an advantage.

There are few if any advantages to it, and tons of downsides, from learning curve, to workflow to real productivity.

I think at a certain point one has to realize that thinking different isn't always helpful and thinking and implementing things traditionally might just really be a good idea in the end.

DF
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:46 AM   #31
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Well, I certainly don't condone the adolf reference from that poster but....

I think it shows how negatively people react to the way midi is set up in reaper.

Look, when you get in a car, you want a steering wheel and a gas pedal.

People don't want something "innovative and different" compared to what they are used to driving.

People could replace the steering wheel with a joystick, and universally people would be unhappy with it, especially the vast majority of traditional car drivers.

That's exactly what its like using Midi in reaper.

It's completely different, and it's also slower and more tedious to work with than the standard steering wheel.

I'm pretty tired of hearing how Reaper's steering wheel is different and that's somehow an advantage.

There are few if any advantages to it, and tons of downsides, from learning curve, to workflow to real productivity.

I think at a certain point one has to realize that thinking different isn't always helpful and thinking and implementing things traditionally might just really be a good idea in the end.

DF
+1 A bit like that X in the top right of envelope lane they turned into hide/clear. Suddenly 1 click close turned into 2 clicks? What are we thinking??
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:57 AM   #32
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I'd bet joystick or something even better are to replace the old steering wheel sooner or later .

I don't remember Cubase very well, but Sonar has the most cluttered, space eating track header I've ever seen. Reaper's track controls are of course subject to improvement (faders, buttons, colors etc.), but right now I feel I get more information into less space than in Sonar. At least it doesn't look that wild. What I am missing is track I/O, but that's not MIDI only.

Again, I am not saying Reaper wouldn't benefit from MIDI love, but you being tired or not of it, they are definitely going the right way with the unified track paradigm. I don't see it slowing me down, it frees me up.

Amazed, what have envelopes to do with it? That's a completely different subject (a valid one, granted).
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:59 AM   #33
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I'd bet joystick or something even better are to replace the old steering wheel sooner or later .

I don't remember Cubase very well, but Sonar has the most cluttered, space eating track header I've ever seen. Reaper's track controls are of course subject to improvement (faders, buttons, colors etc.), but right now I feel I get more information into less space than in Sonar. At least it doesn't look that wild. What I am missing is track I/O, but that's not MIDI only.

Again, I am not saying Reaper wouldn't benefit from MIDI love, but you being tired or not of it, they are definitely going the right way with the unified track paradigm. I don't see it slowing me down, it frees me up.

Amazed, what have envelopes to do with it? That's a completely different subject (a valid one, granted).
People don't want something "innovative and different" compared to what they are used to driving.

The X is for close.
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Old 06-28-2010, 12:05 PM   #34
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I think most of the negative reactions i see people have, are people just not wanting to adapt. I keep seeimg people saying things in the line of - we dont want innovation, we want want were used to. WHAT IS THAT! Then go back to cubase. There's so much wicked innovation in Reaper, all's one has to do is jump in, stop hating on minor issues, and make some music -
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Old 06-28-2010, 12:07 PM   #35
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I'd bet joystick or something even better are to replace the old steering wheel sooner or later .

I don't remember Cubase very well, but Sonar has the most cluttered, space eating track header I've ever seen. Reaper's track controls are of course subject to improvement (faders, buttons, colors etc.), but right now I feel I get more information into less space than in Sonar. At least it doesn't look that wild. What I am missing is track I/O, but that's not MIDI only.

Again, I am not saying Reaper wouldn't benefit from MIDI love, but you being tired or not of it, they are definitely going the right way with the unified track paradigm. I don't see it slowing me down, it frees me up.

Amazed, what have envelopes to do with it? That's a completely different subject (a valid one, granted).
I don't remember Cubase very well, but Sonar has the most cluttered, space eating track header I've ever seen.

Except for the fact that you don't mention Sonars widget control. Haha.
The ability to store and recall tracks with user specified controls.
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Old 06-28-2010, 12:09 PM   #36
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People don't want something "innovative and different" compared to what they are used to driving.

The X is for close.
people also used to think the earth was flat
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Old 06-28-2010, 12:12 PM   #37
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I think most of the negative reactions i see people have, are people just not wanting to adapt. I keep seeimg people saying things in the line of - we dont want innovation, we want want were used to. WHAT IS THAT! Then go back to cubase. There's so much wicked innovation in Reaper, all's one has to do is jump in, stop hating on minor issues, and make some music -
OK So I'm working on this song. MMm piano could be better 1 octave up.
Click on the track and press ]
Naah better as it was [

Maybe it should be harpsichord. Hover on patch and scroll. Or click on patch +++ mmmm There. That's what I mean.

We talking functionality here. Not DAW. Tell me how to do that in reaper as easy as that? And then I'll tell you which daw.
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Old 06-28-2010, 12:13 PM   #38
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people also used to think the earth was flat
Door knobs is for ??? Why do you want to turn a 1 click X close into 2 clicks hide/close? Better new icon for hide yes?
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Old 06-28-2010, 12:16 PM   #39
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well ive never used mmpiano (kontakt guy), though there's actions for midi transpose by octaves. Also, it seems patch changes is more of an issues with the softsampler, not the host.
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Old 06-28-2010, 12:17 PM   #40
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still - one click - two clicks - big deal - i mean sure things can be better, but i see all these people saying "we dont want something new, its not like it used to be" - Exactly - that's why it's NEW!
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