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Old 04-19-2013, 08:02 AM   #1
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Default Is the Layouts Dialog Supposed to look likethis?

Is the Layouts dialog supposed to look like this?
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:32 AM   #2
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here's mine:

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Old 04-19-2013, 08:46 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by hopi View Post
here's mine:

Thanks fella. I thought my glasses had fallen off with that blurred junk going on at the bottom. Some developer having an artistic moment no doubt.
Have you got the same kind of rubbish in the crossfade editor dialog on the right hand side?
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:58 AM   #4
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I think it's blurred to indicate it's not available (inactive)
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:05 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by MichaJo View Post
I think it's blurred to indicate it's not available (inactive)
It's true that it's disabled. It's a whole new approach to indicating that though. Looks like a train smash. Does yours look any better? I'm looking through the theme editor, maybe there's something we can do there.
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:20 AM   #6
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Probably this can be Waltered. Don't know. I know some GIMP themes where inactive items are treated the same way and i don't like it.
A matter of taste.
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:42 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by MichaJo View Post
I think it's blurred to indicate it's not available (inactive)
No, it's blurred as the rendering is buggy, imo.

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=4521
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:52 AM   #8
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Maybe. I had just remembered a discussion about this in a GIMP forum regarding some Style Theme Engines (e.g. Clearlooks or Pixmap) where it's intentional not to grey out inactive items but to blur respectively to offset the font.
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:51 AM   #9
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WT puts on his "I told you so" hat, clears his throat, and...

Who remembers the "white backgrounds" torches&pitchfork incident from the V4 development period? Much shouting and aggravation about the white backgrounds, complete with a side order of "OMG why won't Cockos talk to us about this". Being able to change the colour of one thing without a complete and detailed solution to all the related things will yield side effects. This is one of them. It was, IMO, a prime example of "very popular FR that no one actually thought through". You can now change the white backgrounds to different colours. But all the related bits assume a white background. So now you need to theme them, but you can't, and before you go and FR for that, consider this : what will the side effect from that be? Can't think of one? I can.

Asking to be able to theme everything is easy to say. I say it myself. But its a silly thing to say, because that's not how Reaper is developed, never has been, never will be. Things happen bit by bit, with a good period of settle&test between each advance. And my attitude is that theming needs to be extended by area not by shotgun FRing for disparate bits without thinking through the consequences. This is a consequence. I warned you of it. The world would be soooo much better off if I was put in charge of everything, so pay attention

TL/DR : Not a bug. Change the background colour to white or near-white.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:36 AM   #10
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My own view -

Quote:
You can now change the white backgrounds to different colours. But all the related bits assume a white background.
I regard "the related bits" as one area that was not considered at the time. The only people who can think though the consequences of an FR are the developers. No-one else has the necessary insight or knowledge. Certainly not me.

Gentle reader, just ask yourself this - did you know that lines of text for disabled functions assumed a background colour of white. I certainly did not, nor would it enter my mind.

The best any user can do is give the issue some consideration, think about the consequences, bearing in mind his / her imperfect level of knowledge then raise the issue as an FR or BR.

Looking at the Layouts window (and the others that are affected), I would not consider raising an FR to make a blurry line of text into a clear readable line of text. To me it's a bug.

------------
Also, I should have asked years ago - what does TL/DR stand for?
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:04 PM   #11
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Its not a bug.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:38 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
------------
Also, I should have asked years ago - what does TL/DR stand for?
Too Long Didn't Read

As far as the original pitchfork episode, I somewhat remember that one. It was all about "everybody else does super cool looking backgrounds in util/tool windows and only real DAWs do that". I'm sure there was some but, but, but, its more complex than that but it made no difference at the time (due to the pitchforks and torches) , it was added with warnings and here we be. I'd have to dig up the thread but it does seem like they tried to tell us about it waay back then.

It just took some time for it to pop up and someone to find one of those unexpected anomalies.
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:09 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Too Long Didn't Read
Oh, come now, his post wasn't that long...

This is just another one of the many things that contributes to the rough-arond-the-edges look of REAPER. It's simply not consistent with other inactive elements/labels. See the item properties window for an example where it's handled more appropriately.

I think it's fair to say it's a bug, or at least a visual glitch.
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:21 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Its not a bug.
Well if it's not a bug then it's working as designed (or by consequence) and it's a case of extremely poor taste on somebody part because, after all, this is the default theme. This is what a new user sees out of the box and it looks like a train smash. And Cockos thought that was OK because the users came up with an FR?

So White Tie. Which background color do I need to change then to fix this please? There are a few.

Thanks. Oh and you are now officially in charge. The more the merrier. Can you please take care of this? It would look so much better. And that other stupid issue I'm having about trying to change the toolbar tab colors from the theme editor. If you could please fix that too ??

Oh I see which background now. Thxs. But in the crossfade editor all the knobs then go wayward. Nope. I think this is just unfinished business. Somebody surely looked at this and made a decision and said it's OK. Either don't care or no taste or don't know how to fix it.

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Old 04-19-2013, 08:02 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Tomm View Post
Oh, come now, his post wasn't that long...

This is just another one of the many things that contributes to the rough-arond-the-edges look of REAPER. It's simply not consistent with other inactive elements/labels. See the item properties window for an example where it's handled more appropriately.

I think it's fair to say it's a bug, or at least a visual glitch.
But the point was, "we shouldn't add cool bg colors for those type windows right now, takes lots of refinement to get it right" everyone said waaaaahhhhhhh so they added it quickly and voila, WT's told ya so. Can't win no matter what.

Looks like TLDR is a bit contagious.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:10 PM   #16
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I have a strong tendency to listen to WT... so I'd guess he explained the why and and wherefore of it looking like doodoo at the bottom...

still, I like my color panel matching the theme I use, so I'll just live with it.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:32 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Amazed View Post
Well if it's not a bug then it's working as designed (or by consequence) and it's a case of extremely poor taste on somebody part because, after all, this is the default theme. This is what a new user sees out of the box and it looks like a train smash. And Cockos thought that was OK because the users came up with an FR?
There were several threads on the subject. Here is one of the posts I believe WT was referring to concerning adding colored backgrounds one step at a time:

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...9&postcount=66

Either way, no matter what they do (as humans with lots of stuff to do) will they be able to prevent grief when trying to get from point A to point B. It would likely have been more useful to have had your participation in those threads at that time if you feel that strongly about it IMHO/YMMV.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:40 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
But the point was
lol, I get it and IMO it's not a big deal, just one of those nitpickey things. Of course, the drama-queens among have their rights to do their thing too. I don't mind and actually find it quite amusing. Passion is usually a good thing :P

Amazed, it's been stated several times now that it'll look better with a brighter coloured background. Anything brighter then say 50% and not too saturated will look better. This setting can be changed by going to: Options > Preferences > Theme Editor > Window background

The default theme should look like this:



and the Items Properties dialog should look like this:



Notice in Item Properties it handles inactive elements (seen on the right half) by graying them out. IMO that's the way it should be handled everywhere, for consistency and readability, because even with lighter colours it's kinda hard to read. I'm pretty sure only the DEVs can make this change.

If you have a dark background like the one shown in the OP then you either aren't using the default 4.0 theme, are using an outdated REAPER, or maybe something else funky is going on.

Good luck folks
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:52 PM   #19
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would likely have been more useful to have had your participation in those threads at that time
yeah, totally... what are some people thinking bringing up these old issues, lol...

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Old 04-19-2013, 09:11 PM   #20
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Its not a bug.
Correct, It is poor design
Anything that indeed will effect something in an adverse way has to be fixed when you are working on it or you are leaving it by design IE poor design.

No matter how much you talk about it there are way too many of these small poor design decisions that are now floating around in Reaper and as some of us said before v4 was released or even beta "Stop adding features it is time for the big clean up release"
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:26 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post
Correct, It is poor design
Quote:
A software bug is an error, flaw, failure, or fault in a computer program or system that produces an incorrect or unexpected result, or causes it to behave in unintended ways.
(from wikipedia)

just another opinion... to dismiss something just because it doesn't fit your personal interpretation of a word is a bit rude IMO, or at least missing the point but of course you could go as far as saying everything is a bug because maybe you are just crazy and don't understand anything... lol, but IMO in this case it's obviously straddling that fine line, no big deal...
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:26 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
There were several threads on the subject. Here is one of the posts I believe WT was referring to concerning adding colored backgrounds one step at a time:

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...9&postcount=66

Either way, no matter what they do (as humans with lots of stuff to do) will they be able to prevent grief when trying to get from point A to point B. It would likely have been more useful to have had your participation in those threads at that time if you feel that strongly about it IMHO/YMMV.
My participation at the time? What good would that be? I can't fix it. Everybody at the time would have seen it. Cockos included and they chose to let it go it appears..

And anyway, if I had something to say at the time would I have got more of that 'if you feel that strongly about it' rubbish. If this issue is of no concern to YOU then go and bully somebody else in another thread. I posted initially to try and get a handle on what the situation was. Not to bang on anybody.
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:30 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Tomm View Post
yeah, totally... what are some people thinking bringing up these old issues, lol...

Because Cockos keep shipping it. That means it's gonna keep on getting raised.
What else would we expect?
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:33 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Tomm View Post
lol, I get it and IMO it's not a big deal, just one of those nitpickey things. Of course, the drama-queens among have their rights to do their thing too. I don't mind and actually find it quite amusing. Passion is usually a good thing :P

Amazed, it's been stated several times now that it'll look better with a brighter coloured background. Anything brighter then say 50% and not too saturated will look better. This setting can be changed by going to: Options > Preferences > Theme Editor > Window background

The default theme should look like this:



and the Items Properties dialog should look like this:



Notice in Item Properties it handles inactive elements (seen on the right half) by graying them out. IMO that's the way it should be handled everywhere, for consistency and readability, because even with lighter colours it's kinda hard to read. I'm pretty sure only the DEVs can make this change.

If you have a dark background like the one shown in the OP then you either aren't using the default 4.0 theme, are using an outdated REAPER, or maybe something else funky is going on.

Good luck folks
Thanks for your help with this.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:37 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Amazed View Post
because, after all, this is the default theme.
No it isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post
It is poor design
Indeed it is. No one said it wasn't. There is no argument here, move along please. No doubt somewhere in the tracker is an FR saying "let us theme everything" ...please, feel free to go and vote yes on that. I will join you, or probably already have. But, back in the real world, it ain't going happen that way. Yes, I too wish it would.

...

You have all been given the capacity to make something look bad, should you choose too. You have been warned not to. You have done it anyway, as is your right, and all power to you. But that's on you. Or, indeed me, where I have done it in my personal themes, yes. Its not a bug.

To reiterate my point : I want to be able to make all of the UI and UX of Reaper awesome, that's going to take a great deal of control (and therefore a great deal of time), WALTER is the start of that, there is no quick fix. And there never was. And it wasn't the white backgrounds red herring.
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:14 AM   #26
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No matter how much you talk about it there are way too many of these small poor design decisions that are now floating around in Reaper and as some of us said before v4 was released or even beta "Stop adding features it is time for the big clean up release"
Here's the thing: Reaper will never be clean. At least until the very end, the outer edges will be rough. That's the yang to evolutionary development/updating's yin. They're co-definitive, like peaks and toughs. You can't have one without the other.

The core is clean due to successive passes. It's been there the longest, so the snarls have been combed out. As you move outward, fewer and fewer passes have been made, until you get to the ragged edge. That's not a criticism -- that's just the way it is.

Other DAWs are able to tie up loose ends and clean everything up because that's it. That's the release. That's what users get for the next year or two, with maybe an update or two if they're lucky. The price you pay for Buttoned Up is Turned To Stone. And it's not even close to worth it.

You may say "Surely they could do a round of serious clean up", and you'd be right. First of all, that's a ton of work, during which time not much else is getting done. And here's the thing: they'd likely have to mess it all up again right after, because the spit-shine was premature. That's other DAWs' dirty secret: underneath that thin lacquer is an ossified evolutionary process. It's like a candy shell that's added before every release and cracked off right after. Or like cleaning up shop too thoroughly in the middle of a project: why do it? It's a waste. It's pure overhead. You'll need everything out again straight away.

You need to get used to living with scaffolding, at least near the edges. That's part of the deal, and it's not going away, hopefully ever. What it buys you is a DAW that gets noticeably better on an extremely short time scale. And the streamlined core is always growing.

When Reaper gets too clean, that's when you should get scared, because it'll mean they don't plan on too much more experimentation. It'll mean they're wrapping things up. [shudder]
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:43 AM   #27
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You may say "Surely they could do a round of serious clean up", and you'd be right. First of all, that's a ton of work, during which time not much else is getting done. And here's the thing: they'd likely have to mess it all up again right after, because the spit-shine was premature.
Right on. And its not just that; I don't know one end of a line of code from another, but I work, and have worked, with a great number of varied programming teams ...and I have noticed this: our coding buddies are very wary of UIstuff's ability to break things. Generally they don't like working on UI stuff anyway because it has limited opportunities for creative, interesting code construction. But it is also the place where your code meets OS code (meaning cross-platform headaches, Apple breaking it apparently just for lulz) and any corner-case knock-on effects will quite possibly result in a slew of new graphical errors worse than the one you just fixed. Its all kinds of no-fun-at-all.

Within Reaper, the first order of business is to give us the ability to deal with the things Reaper draws itself. WALTER and yet more WALTER, progressively, over time. This will allow us to do better. But we're not going to get close to total appearance control until Reaper takes over the business of drawing things that are currently drawn by the OS. And if no one hears anything else that I say, please hear this :

--- That's a very, very, very big ask. ---

Not because our guys can't do it. Pffft, snort, pah. They're rockstars. Its not because its a lot of work, which it is - let he who would dare suggest our guys are afraid of hard work proceed directly to the naughty step. It is because it is, functionally, redundant work replacing code that already works fine with lots of new code that will almost certainly break an enormous amount of other code that is currently working perfectly. That's a thoroughly odious proposition to the neat and tidy mind of a quality coder. I'd like it to happen, I believe it will happen eventually, patience is obligatory. In the meantime, I counsel for Reaper to take over drawing responsibility for little things here and there when they are being worked on for other reasons, and occasionally that happens. And that's progress, we're on the right road. Are we there yet? No. Are we there yet? No. Are we there yet? No. Are we there yet? No. Are we there yet? No.
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Old 04-20-2013, 02:24 AM   #28
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Being able to change the colour of one thing without a complete and detailed solution to all the related things will yield side effects.
Gaaa, this is so true. And it pretty much generalizes to the major disconnect between users and developers over "small" feature requests.

All users see is this tiny. little. thing. that they're asking for. They're like, "Why won't you just do it?! There's nothing to it! It'd be so easy! Doooooo iiiiit!" And they're right. It would be easy.

But all devs see is one instance of a problem with a general solution, but that they're being asked to "fix" with a one-off special case hack. They know they want to implement the general solution in the not-too-distant future, so adding a special case now is profoundly distasteful. Best case, it's work they'll have to undo; worst case (and probably much more common), it becomes an unremoveable legacy quirk that will plague maintenance for all eternity.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:36 AM   #29
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Other DAWs are able to tie up loose ends and clean everything up because that's it. That's the release. That's what users get for the next year or two, with maybe an update or two if they're lucky. The price you pay for Buttoned Up is Turned To Stone. And it's not even close to worth it.
And yet another defensive DAW war reaction.

Look, Reaper is what it is but this particular thing has *nothing* to do with other DAW's, even though whenever it comes up you get the expected daw war reactions... "But REAPER is this and they're not, and so on and so on and you have to wait two years for updates and yada, yada, yada, we're the best..."

It has - nothing - to do with other DAW's, it has to do with software UI design. Find me any major multimedia app with as much of an inconsistent graphic design. You'll be hard pressed to, but you might find one, maybe, if you look really hard. Most media apps (not daws, professional media apps) have a consistent look throughout.

Open up a dialog or window in other apps (any pro apps) and tell me if they don't look like the rest of the app. The properties window looks like something from Win 95. That doesn't make it less functional though... but the overall design is inconsistent.

I don't care so much tbh, it's hardly a major deal, but the discussion always goes to "other daws", and how Reaper wins something or other when it has nothing at all to do with that. What Reaper does better and how much it costs has nothing much to do with it.

My $0.02.
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:09 AM   #30
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OK well that does it... that damn flaw in how that little piece of text looks is a deal breaker for me... I'll have to stop using reaper now and go back to Steiny or Cakewalk DAW's... sure they are a PITA to use by comparison BUT they look fine, at least as regards their text labels. Who cares if I can't theme them?

Just because reaper is so fast and light and efficient and let's me do most everything I need, I can't live with it's horrible flaws!
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:13 AM   #31
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And again, overreaction and straw man sarcasm.

Reaper is great, works fine, does the job, and it's UI is inconsistent. Like I said, not a mjor deal to me, but nonetheless true.
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Old 04-20-2013, 10:22 AM   #32
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It wouldn't be a Saturday morning without a nice reply from Lawrence

So we have:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
[...] this particular thing has *nothing* to do with other DAW's [...]

[...] It has - nothing - to do with other DAW's, it has to do with software UI design. [...]

And then we have:

Quote:
Find me any major multimedia app with as much of an inconsistent graphic design. [...]

Most media apps (not daws, professional media apps) have a consistent look throughout.

Open up a dialog or window in other apps (any pro apps) and tell me if they don't look like the rest of the app. [...]

You say it has nothing to do with other DAWs, and then immediately point to other "media apps" to support you point.

Which is kind of the point. The reason this does have at least something to do with other "media apps" is that they and their development/release model create a set of expectations about consistency and tidiness that are unrealistic for Reaper's model. So it's natural to point out the strengths of Reaper's model so people understand the trade-offs involved.

To find similarly somewhat inconsistent UI you'd have to look to the open source world. Which makes sense for a lot of reasons, but mostly because most of those projects are also on an evolutionary release schedule.

My point is only that Reaper's inconsistency is largely a side effect of its development/release model; it isn't likely to change; and it's unfair to point out the drawbacks of that model without also pointing out the (considerable) strengths.
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:54 PM   #33
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You say it has nothing to do with other DAWs, and then immediately point to other "media apps" to support you point.
Yes, as in software design which has nothing to do with audio daws but with UI design. Photo editors, video editors, whatever. The only point is that it's not "Reaper vs. Cubase" but Reaper and the 99% of all pro media apps with a much more consistent UI.

But it always comes down to the "daw wars". Look at Photoshop, not a daw. Look at Corel Draw, not a daw. Look at anything Adobe that is not a daw. Are their UI's consistent? Do they all "suck" because they took the time to do that?

Anyway, I should have just kept my opinion to myself. Trying to inject logic only causes a non-contextual defensive ruckus.
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:20 PM   #34
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Heh. I wrote "DAW" because that was the domain of the discussion at the time. But substituting "media app" would work just as well.

My point isn't specific to DAWs. It is about the relative strengths and weaknesses of different development/release models WRT consistency and tidiness.

I am of course unabashedly a fan of Reaper, and that shows through from time to time. Fuck me, right?

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Anyway, I should have just kept my opinion to myself. Trying to inject logic only causes a non-contextual defensive ruckus.
lol. Lawrence, fearless champion of logic, always willing to storm out in a huff.
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:55 PM   #35
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Storiming out? Lol. . Just stating my opinion like any other user...

That for a 7-year old professional software product, a product in any software class, Reaper's overall UI is very inconsistent. Now you / we can speculate on why we think that is if we want, offer guesses why, talk about how something else is lacking in a completely unrelated area having nothing to do with that, but we don't actually know why that is because we didn't code Reaper.

If the insinuation is that any app that covered that area better is by nature lacking somewhere else, I'd disagree with that excuse.

My opinion - if it's ok for me to also speculate? since that's all anyone but JCS is ever doing, speculating - is that they just haven't taken enough care in the design of some of the UI parts, that while they certainly are functional, it's still very disconnected and inconsistent.

Mileage does vary on that and anything else. All these commenta sould pre-imply that we all like Reaper, so we don't keep having to say it. Assume it's granted.

I know you always have to get the last word so... go for it.
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Old 04-20-2013, 02:57 PM   #36
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I know you always have to get the last word so... go for it.
Don't mind if I do And this isn't directed at you specifically, Lawrence.

Here's how I see it. Reaper is developed and released incrementally and evolutionarily. The devs are always releasing new stuff, gauging its reception, and tweaking it based on user feedback. They release early and release often. And they do this for many good reasons: It's the most dependable way to guide development toward what works and what users want. It eliminates a whole class of bug and vapourware typically introduced by monolithic changes (similar to "second system effect"). And many of the remaining bugs are quickly discovered by the user-base. It keeps things grounded and realistic, with a consistent stream of meaningful improvements released to the public.

The flip-side of this model is that different areas of the program are in varying states of doneness at all times. The outermost layer (the newest stuff), is very rough. The core is polished smooth and gleaming from many successive passes. And there are areas in all states of doneness in between.

You may say "They should stop what they're doing and get everything to the same level of doneness -- the level we've come to expect of other big commercial software packages". That is possible, but it's a 180 pivot from the philosophy that has made Reaper what it is. It would mean either polishing the outer layers of relatively newer stuff, or eliminating them because they don't measure up to the new standard of consistency/tidiness. And in doing so, it would destroy the experimental, evolutionary process that has guided Reaper so far.

It's not that not enough care has been given to the rougher areas -- it's that those areas are purposely left rough to avoid premature optimization, while they are vetted in the crucible of public usage. Evolution and incremental development will in time polish those areas till they too gleam. Or it will phase them out as vestigial structures, in which case any effort spent polishing them to a "pro" level of fit and finish would have been wasted effort anyway, stealing development resources from more straightforward improvements.

Reaper will always (barring some hypothetical EOL feature freeze) be surrounded by concentric rings of functionality at decreasing levels of doneness. Long after the inconsistencies that people complain about today have been polished smooth, people will be complaining about the inconsistency of other, newer stuff.

It would be better to imagine Reaper as a life-form aggressively evolving, experimenting with new adaptations, keeping what works, discarding what doesn't, with no discrete "done" state along the way -- just a smooth ascent.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:10 PM   #37
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Don't mind if I do And this isn't directed at you specifically, Lawrence.

Here's how I see it. Reaper is developed and released incrementally and evolutionarily. The devs are always releasing new stuff, gauging its reception, and tweaking it based on user feedback. They release early and release often. And they do this for many good reasons: It's the most dependable way to guide development toward what works and what users want. It eliminates a whole class of bug and vapourware typically introduced by monolithic changes (similar to "second system effect"). And many of the remaining bugs are quickly discovered by the user-base. It keeps things grounded and realistic, with a consistent stream of meaningful improvements released to the public.

The flip-side of this model is that different areas of the program are in varying states of doneness at all times. The outermost layer (the newest stuff), is very rough. The core is polished smooth and gleaming from many successive passes. And there are areas in all states of doneness in between.

You may say "They should stop what they're doing and get everything to the same level of doneness -- the level we've come to expect of other big commercial software packages". That is possible, but it's a 180 pivot from the philosophy that has made Reaper what it is. It would mean either polishing the outer layers of relatively newer stuff, or eliminating them because they don't measure up to the new standard of consistency/tidiness. And in doing so, it would destroy the experimental, evolutionary process that has guided Reaper so far.

It's not that not enough care has been given to the rougher areas -- it's that those areas are purposely left rough to avoid premature optimization, while they are vetted in the crucible of public usage. Evolution and incremental development will in time polish those areas till they too gleam. Or it will phase them out as vestigial structures, in which case any effort spent polishing them to a "pro" level of fit and finish would have been wasted effort anyway, stealing development resources from more straightforward improvements.

Reaper will always (barring some hypothetical EOL feature freeze) be surrounded by concentric rings of functionality at decreasing levels of doneness. Long after the inconsistencies that people complain about today have been polished smooth, people will be complaining about the inconsistency of other, newer stuff.

It would be better to imagine Reaper as a life-form aggressively evolving, experimenting with new adaptations, keeping what works, discarding what doesn't, with no discrete "done" state along the way -- just a smooth ascent.
When did you start working at Cockos?
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:54 PM   #38
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Don't mind if I do And this isn't directed at you specifically, Lawrence.

Here's how I see it...
And here's how I see it.
Agile methodologies do not imply shipping a dialog with blurry text on it.

If the devs knew about those blurry label they CHOSE to ship that. They set the standard of their deliverables. You can't put that on methodology or of how you'd expect things to be when you go to work for Cockos. When they invite you, that is.

For all you know it was a Friday night over a few beers and one dev said 'so shall we fix it? It'll take 2 hours' and the other dev said 'naah .. I'm done with that shit, these *fkn users and their black backgrounds drive me insane. 'It's been weeks. Besides it's Clintons birthday tonight and I got an invite' 'OK then, we'll leave it till next release .. See you Monday'.
By next release, it's all forgotten about, there is so much to do. So many more pressing issues.

Oh and every time you think you're right in this business, you're probably wrong.

(I don't care so much that the text is blurred. Whether it's a bug or a defect. I just wanted to ..
1) Ascertain that I wasn't the only user with the problem.
2) Find out if Cockos knew about it so it could be corrected some time. (If I was a developer I would have liked to have known.))
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:10 PM   #39
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When did you start working at Cockos?
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[...] or of how you'd expect things to be when you go to work for Cockos [...]
I can't tell if you're joking or taking the piss or what. I hope it's beyond obvious that I'm just Some Guy On The Internet, speaking my very own mind, with no aspirations to work at Cockos.

re: the blurred text, I wasn't referring to that so much. The conversation had broadened by that point to the general "Reaper is inconsistent/untidy/unpolished" bit.
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Old 04-21-2013, 01:44 AM   #40
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2) Find out if Cockos knew about it so it could be corrected some time. (If I was a developer I would have liked to have known.))
Raised in the BR forum 16 November 2012, then in the Issue Tracker in December.
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