Old 03-30-2013, 02:01 AM   #1
Mercado_Negro
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Default Is WALTER slowing themers down?

I've noticed that we used to have much more original themes around when WALTER didn't exist. This makes me wonder, is WALTER slowing themers down? It may be more powerful but it seems to me that it also gets in the way due to its steep learning curve (or am I wrong about this and it's actually simple?). What do you think about this?
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Old 03-30-2013, 02:37 AM   #2
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I think it's more the case that the themes out now, because of walter and it's ease of programming, are actually decent to use and look at, including the default.
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Old 03-30-2013, 03:18 AM   #3
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There are less themes being made now, my analysis:

Less Dissatisfaction - people seem more able to find a theme that they like, so are less inclined to make their own. Which is nice, this is a good outcome.

Ambition - You can do soooo much more with WALTER. So people want to. So themes take longer, and motivation can wane. None of this is unexpected or bad; themers can still take an existing theme and just redraw all the images and change the colours. But maybe that seems too easy when so much more can be done! WALTER is optional, but excitement over the possibilities means its de rigour for the ambitious themer ...and excited themers is a good outcome.

Much harder to mix'n'match - pre-WALTER, almost all themes were predominantly assembled from bits of other themes. This wasn't always credited, and unless you knew all the themes that were out there you might not have spotted it. WALTER themes are much more difficult to mix'n'match.

Screw you assholes, I'm out of here - OK, so, we come to the difficult one, but alas I hear this sentiment often. Here on the forum people are very keen to indulge their freedom of expression, and for a tiny minority that means acting in a manner that discourages themers. You can either take my word for this or not, there's little I can do (or would wish to do) to persuade you, I can only form my opinions from talking to other themers. And by and large they're not happy, be it from trolling, abuse or impatience. And for crying out loud stop offering money, you're being generous as an individual, but collectively the money would be very very very small while the hours would remain very very very long. If all themers were indeed mercenary, the returns wouldn't even come close to adding up, you'd probably get nothing. SO; if you don't want to be stuck with just the default and WT themes, be nice to the themers, give them the feedback they need (yes, all the negative feedback too) politely, be appreciative, respectful and patient. And the worm will turn.
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Old 03-30-2013, 05:24 AM   #4
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^^^^
White Tie's latter point is what puts me off sharing my work.
There is just no joy to be had from having your work trashed by self-appointed style gurus.
It is the rude minority that have killed it for the polite majority.
That's how I feel anyway.
Steve
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Old 03-30-2013, 05:52 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyfilms View Post
^^^^
White Tie's latter point is what puts me off sharing my work.
There is just no joy to be had from having your work trashed by self-appointed style gurus.
It is the rude minority that have killed it for the polite majority.
That's how I feel anyway.
Steve
Sad times. I wonder if just releasing the them once it's done instead of asking options would chance the critics bashing. I always see a lot of themes posted as a "preview" and asking for suggestion. It's like the difference in song someone to listen to a mix in progress and someone to listen to a finished product.

I remember RADOs theme posts always stated that he makes them for him self and doesn't need input... he just wants to share them with the community.

I also think the point WT makes about users being less dissatisfied is a big factor. in R3 I used like.. 4-5 themes trying to find what I want.. since Walter I've used one...
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Old 03-30-2013, 05:56 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post

Screw you assholes, I'm out of here
Would it be possible to have a separate group much like the lounge is now, that is far more tightly controlled, and more exclusive (or even completely separate from this forum). A kind of themer's, and themer enthusiast club area.


As far as the original topic, I feel that walter has been a great success in making Reaper more functional and better looking. The fact that people can still make themes just like in the past without walter adds credit to White Tie's comments.
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:50 AM   #7
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WT is ALWAYS such a class act that it's hard to follow. And yet again his points are perfectly clear and well made.

I want to chime in and say that I, for one, TOTALLY appreciate the work of ALL the people who attempt anything with WALTER! It don't matter a whit if I like their themes or not.

What DOES matter to me, is that they have even tried and that they have put in a lot of time and energy to offer a free contribution to the Reaper community.

IMHO the rude and crude crowd are people who have never even made a png file, much less worked on a rtconfig file.

And, yes, ... sadly I can see how the 'good guys' can get that feeling of "I'm otta here"... but I want to encourage the 'good guys' to NOT do that. It means the field becomes abandoned to the wrong crowd!

"Scum floats to the top"... ya know?



I want themer's to know there is at the least, one person [me] who holds them in high regard. And I say this as one who has made many png's and even done a tiny bit of WALTER.

Even with WT's wonderful guide, I still find it extremely difficult. I'm just not a person with a code type mind.

You guys that are WALTER genies, please don't stop!
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Old 03-30-2013, 04:25 PM   #8
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No doubt all themers deserve credit for contributing positively to the evolution of this fine piece of software. All kinds of neat little ideas here and there make their way through
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:39 PM   #9
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That's sad

I really thought WALTER was slowing themers down but now that you mention this I kinda agree, it's the community... really sad because we had impressive talents back in the good old days on REAPER forums, now most of them are sleepers, keeping their good work for themselves because it isn't worth it (yeah, right now this forum isn't even a shadow of what it used to be a few years ago... sad).
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Old 03-31-2013, 12:05 AM   #10
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I think there is too much hash spoken about the poor poor themers, if you are making a theme you are invariably making it for yourself, if you then choose to listen to talentless assholes who just want to look good and do nothing (Quite a lot of these around here lately) then more fool you (Whoever you are and however talented you may be)

If your theme is good then why do you need the pampering from worshipers, who gives a sh*t, use your theme and go make some music.

Ignore idiots (pretty sure there is even a button for that)

As for "What other themers" say, where is this grand meeting place where all these themers meet ?
Seriously, themers come and go and who cares, since WALTER the themes available are of extremely high quality and if you can't find one you like PM me and i will help you all you like to make your own

REAPER IS FOR MAKING MUSIC

(Note this is not pointed at any one person or themer before any fanbois want to get all butt hurt)
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Old 03-31-2013, 12:51 AM   #11
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i don't mind getting trash talked. i'm gonna make a theme. someday.
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Old 03-31-2013, 01:16 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post
themers come and go and who cares
I do, for one.

You're looking down the other end of the telescope from me. OP asks where the themers have gone, I can only speak to what I perceive. Of course you are correct, if no one cared what anyone else said, none of this would be a problem. I am explaining that they do care. You can't change that reality any more than I can, no matter how much vicky pollard attitude you choose to throw at it.
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Old 03-31-2013, 01:28 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post
Ignore idiots (pretty sure there is even a button for that)
Themers need to be inspired by the pure fun of it. Like all stuff that needs to be brainstormed into reality, it needs an environment where creatives can re-think new possibillities with renewed enthousiasm.

Without the community 'energizing' me the V3 theme I did would never have been realized.

I don't know much about the current state of this forum, but in general a subforum with a PW and a moderator is pretty effective in locking out testosterone-driven buzzkillers.

Such a place would get me going again, fer sure.

Walter's Kitchen. Behave or be gone. Idea?
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Old 03-31-2013, 05:53 AM   #14
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Talentless wannabe here... I have zip for graphic skills but would love to be able to change Reaper's theme to suit my needs. It's just too complicated for me atm. I have very strong ideas though. I work pretty much all in TCP and never use the mixer so for me getting TCP looking fly is my focus.

For example, I use the default theme but got help modifying it so the meters and fader go all the way across.



For me theming should be like lego block where you just move things around and put them where you want and then set rules on how they behave in different situations and screen resolutions.

I'm chiming in just to lend another perspective. I have no interest in theming because of the amount of involvement required but I have a strong interest in getting themes that meet my needs. So I either do without or have to climb what appears to be a mountain

I would love to take Imperial and Bespoke and tweak them to my delight but now I'm afraid to. The last time I installed Imperial, and switched back to Default, my icons were changed ("overwritten") ? So now I have to be even more careful to try themes.

Thanks for all you themers do !
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Old 03-31-2013, 06:05 AM   #15
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The idea is that you make feature requests to themers, who use WALTER to change things; this is a huge step forwards from requiring the developers to change visual layout. It was never intended to be an all-user-level modification, but an empowerment of the community like reascript or the extensions functionality. What you're talking about is a much, much more complex proposition. One day, perhaps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
The last time I installed Imperial, and switched back to Default, my icons were changed ("overwritten") ?
I don't know what happened, but it wasn't that. A .reaperthemezip theme cannot affect another theme in any way whatsoever. You must have done something else.
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Old 03-31-2013, 06:41 AM   #16
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Well, I for one appreciate enormously the effort you've all been doing to make all these themes available.

I haven't got a screen with the resolution to run Imperial and when I saw it the first time I was amazed, and that's really an understatement.

Albertxxx's themes are also wonderfully crafted, also like RADO, and Lambda's themes (Dusty is my default and I can't seem to shake it )

I say enormously because I've tried to delve in Walter and adapt that mixer with those beatiful faders and all to my screen and I barely got out alive And my ego got bruised

Seriously, WALTER to some of us is no picknick so it is preventing the mix and match themes like WT said, but it is allowing for some fantastic stuff as well. As with music, I guess you have to put time in it.

Just carry on all of you with the good service and great work you're doing. I'm sure many of us do support you and thank you greatly for it. Perhaps we should stop being the silent majority...

PS: WT I haven't given up on "little Imperial" yet
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Old 03-31-2013, 06:49 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
Talentless wannabe here...
Hello my brother ehehehe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
For me theming should be like lego block where you just move things around and put them where you want and then set rules on how they behave in different situations and screen resolutions.
That's my view as well. I was actually in the process of writing a FR about walter called something like "Walter addons" or something. Got no skill for naming things either
It would be something like you could attach these "addons" to walter pngs like say for instance I have the mcp.fx png at the bottom of the mixer and I want at the top some text saying FX on. I don't think there's any way to do this is it? So we could have a png with the text you could give it X Y coordinates and it would be say mcp.fx_addon1.png or something. Does it make sense to anyone? Or am I talking rubbish?
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:29 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post

I don't know what happened, but it wasn't that. A .reaperthemezip theme cannot affect another theme in any way whatsoever. You must have done something else.
perhaps he has different themes specified in the two parts of the preferences, so that the use resources from field and the use theme field do not match?
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:39 AM   #19
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I enjoy the work of many theme creators here. I switch it up from time to time.

Walter is a lot harder to work with IMHO. That is one reason we may have less activity in the theming parts of the forum.

Personally I can't be bothered investing time to 'program' GUI designs, just like close to nobody draws that way either.

Can't say I want to ask someone else to implement my ideas with this flexible, but very complex programming language for interface design.

As wonderful as the results by some have been, the way WALTER has to be written is an impediment that blocks a great deal of creativity from coming in to play. Whether that would result in some mediocre or even bad designs doesn't matter. The good ones would make the effort worth it.

But hey, let's be realistic. There's just three guys coding and this is not as important as other stuff is and that's just how it is.

When I get the chance I support themers with praise, suggestions and ... well, silence too sometimes. Maybe that's not a good thing.

IMO talking about it does help everyone, so let's keep doing that.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:36 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
That's sad

...

(yeah, right now this forum isn't even a shadow of what it used to be a few years ago... sad).

this sums it all up, in general.


(for eg when im posting my own reaper "how i do this.." videos as alternative ideas to a question, a user is shouting spamaladingdong?.. (im NOT selling anything here, not even advertising my own music productions) or 90+ views and 0 reply for a MIDI based question?.. etc.)


btw themes, i still use my old pre-walter theme, using some buttons made by another user (sadly dont remember who) and the rest by me.
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:23 AM   #21
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I had unzipped the theme to it's own dir so I could make minor modifications like the height of minimized tracks. So maybe being unzipped I broke the design.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
perhaps he has different themes specified in the two parts of the preferences, so that the use resources from field and the use theme field do not match?
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Old 04-01-2013, 06:51 AM   #22
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I try some themes... but I always go back to default v4...
but I would like to know how to change some things in the TCP like Coachz says
or the sends level indicator to be more visible in the mixer.
but I like default v4.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:18 AM   #23
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As long as there is one usable default theme,
I'm ok.

I guess making a good theme is quite a task,
and thus, the people who'd make them needs good motivation -be it money, positive feedback or just to be happy with their own achievements.

I like the idea of many users contributing, but on the other hand,
I'd take 2 good themes over 30 mediocre any day.

BTW: Thanks to everyone for their contributions regarding themes!
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:48 AM   #24
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simplicity in themes is the key to a good environment ... and oddly enough I do the opposite took me a while to realize this. sorry for my english



PD: nor too simple
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:27 AM   #25
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Wasn't there someone last year that was working on a Walter graphic designer software? It was supposed to attract non-programmer to a "walterized" theme design.
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Old 04-01-2013, 05:57 PM   #26
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yeah he gave up
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:28 AM   #27
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V4 default is set to default here.


(ducks)
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:54 AM   #28
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I think White Tie's final point was very valid and we should all take it on ourselves as Reaperites to protect this forum and call people out and get them to treat people better. Gearslutz used to be ok but now people just post and post even though they aren't saying anything to move the thread forward or even on topic. Threads are happening more and more often here that are way off topic and we should do something about it so we have more themers willing to share the work and we as individuals need to read all of our post and ask ourselves if this post is moving the thread forward and if not don't post. my 2cents... we need more themers
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Old 04-04-2013, 01:31 PM   #29
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I love Camembert ...mmmmm
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:30 PM   #30
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if you don't want trolls, don't feed em. This forum can be whatever you want it to be Mercado. If someone's abusive, report em. The mods can ban em. IF they don't well, then this is the forum they asked for, no?
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:30 PM   #31
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Sat down and had a talk with WALTER last night. I think we may have an understanding.

I made several V2 themes, but haven't touched theming since.

Look for something from me soon(ish)
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Old 04-04-2013, 04:12 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vStyler View Post
I love Camembert ...mmmmm
Disgruntled themers tend not to whine, actually. They just leave. Their leaving is a problem to those who want more themes. Its desperately simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
The mods can ban em.
Can? yes. Do? No. Just because the forum isn't moderated for manners, that doesn't make highlighting the consequences of bad manners anything more than a reality check. This is why we can't have nice things, in effect. I really don't think anyone is expecting change in this regard, but if we're going to look for blame then I don't think much of it should be directed at WALTER.

On the contrary, consider this extreme example; if there was almost no theming going on at all. One could argue that's the direction we're heading in, though I wouldn't personally read too much into that. In such a case it would extremely difficult for me to lobby for further advancements in WALTER, and the very opposite of Mercado's question would come about. Hypothetical, but within the grey area before we got there is a lot of food for thought.
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Old 04-04-2013, 04:15 PM   #33
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i was more responding to mercado's statement about the forum not being what it used to be.

and im sorry, but abusive behavior should not be tolerated. It's beyond "manners" my friend. I've seen it directed at themers and in many other aspects of this board.
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:31 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
This makes me wonder, is WALTER slowing themers down?
WALTER offers as lot more flexibility than v3 theming, so they is bound to be more work to do (even if you just copy the defaults layouts.txt file into rtconfig.txt and start from there).

I cannot speak for other themers, but it does take me longer. Particular problems I ran into:
-- getting to grips with Reverse Polish Notation, especially when it is nested
-- edge attachments
-- understanding the syntactical relationship between default layouts and specific Layouts
-- some oddities (such as set tcp.pan h>71 [863 45 20 20 1 0 1 0] still producing a (short) slider, not a knob)
-- syntax error not being reported, just ignored
-- trying to understand statements such as:
Code:
set tcp.fxin !!recarm tcp.meter{w}>0  + [0 2] [tcp.meter{x} tcp.meter{y} 20 20 tcp.meter{4} tcp.meter{5} tcp.meter{4} tcp.meter{5}]

set w_pan wantwidlbl{0}>0 + +:-1:1 [0 0 tcp.volume.label{w} 0 0 0 0 0] [0 0 -4]
-- the lingering feeling that I have never ever finished a v4 theme
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:13 AM   #35
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absolutely yes...

WALTER is so complex for a simple thing than should be done by a true proffesional...
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:51 AM   #36
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I gave it a try early on but it does take some committment.

Like WT said, I found a few good ones I kinda like so I never thought much about it really. It was rather amusing at times, some of the "working on" theme threads where some of the style gurus would be kinda rude and dismissive of other people's graphic work.

I guess that's a "graphic designer competition" thing, no clue.

Example: I think the Imperial theme (for example) is a rather fantastic design, a near masterpiece of design work to look at, and I think I can (if it's even necessary, which it's actually not ) form the words to politely say why I actually choose not to use it without pissing all over White Tie like a stray dog.
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:34 AM   #37
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"Walter graphic designer software"

I am a retired person who has done some coding and I was thinking about doing a program like this too.

I have resisted WALTER because he is a very complex fellow and he communicates in a strange tongue.

So this would indeed be a huge amount of effort. At least a year of coding 10 hrs. / week. I will not exceed this limit because I am a code-aholic
and will not return to that lifestyle.

But I think there's enough info in these forums to get me started.

The graphical part is where I will need help to put together a quality bits-and pieces DB to be used by the user. Because any theme is only as good as its pixels.

This is the only post I will make about this subject uintil I run into something I need help with. It will be at least a year before alpha testing. Patience is a virtue. So don't hound me because it won't do any good.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:09 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by merdave View Post
"Walter graphic designer software"

I am a retired person who has done some coding and I was thinking about doing a program like this too.

I have resisted WALTER because he is a very complex fellow and he communicates in a strange tongue.

So this would indeed be a huge amount of effort. At least a year of coding 10 hrs. / week. I will not exceed this limit because I am a code-aholic
and will not return to that lifestyle.

But I think there's enough info in these forums to get me started.

The graphical part is where I will need help to put together a quality bits-and pieces DB to be used by the user. Because any theme is only as good as its pixels.

This is the only post I will make about this subject uintil I run into something I need help with. It will be at least a year before alpha testing. Patience is a virtue. So don't hound me because it won't do any good.
Curious post, but you sound like you might actually deliver

Best of luck, and we'll look forward to it.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:30 AM   #39
kindafishy
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Originally Posted by Spacemen Tree View Post
PS: WT I haven't given up on "little Imperial" yet
Have you tried Dead_Ringer_Colonial_4000XL_PRO? See the bottom of the first post here -> http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=97925
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:18 PM   #40
vidalsh
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Have you tried Dead_Ringer_Colonial_4000XL_PRO? See the bottom of the first post here -> http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=97925
I´ve tried colonial, imperial, solaris...but there are no mcp resizable and I need resizable mcp to my workflow...
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