Old 05-10-2022, 01:15 PM   #1
kokconut
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Default Fighting amp simulators noise

I'm using amp simulators for recording guitars silently and in the box. The tone and distorsion are as expected for a real world guitar recording but I have big noise when I let ring a note for long.

If I understand how amp sims work, they are not noisy per se. If we have an amp sim inserted in a track there is no noise as far as no signal is feeding the amp sim. But as soon as the track is armed, the amp sim amplifies the signal and generates a low level noise inheret of guitar amps. Its difficult to explaind with my poor english.

But the practical case is, when I record a guitar passage I have low level noise prior to the first plectrum stroke. This can be erased easily with a noise gate or editing the silence. The problem is when the last note or chord rings for long and fades away. As it loses volume the noise raises making useless half of the note tail.

I assume this is due to the "note volume/preamp noise" ratio, for as soon as the track is armed the interface preamp noise is being amplified by the amp sim, even when there is no cable conected to the interface input, so all the signal coming to the track is only the preamp noise floor.

I'm currently using a Presonus 44vsl and a Palmer Pan01 passive DI box. I have also tried to record the guitar conected directly to the instrument inputs, with the same result.

I calibrate the interface inputs with the knobs at noon, just enough gain for the stronger plectrum strokes to peak around -6 dbfs. So I think I'm optimizing the gain structure, but I can't get rid of the noise.


So, my questiones are:

Is there any way I could optimize even more my tracking signal, making it hotter so I can adjust a lower gain in the interface to reduce its preamp noise? Maybe I could use some kind of pedal that let me increase the guitar DI signal prior to the interface premap. It should add no noise and no coloration, as what I'm trying to record here is the raw guitar DI.

Or maybe I should change the interface and get another one with better/more silent preamps. I don't know if this could solve the problem or I'd be in the same situation.


Any help will be welcomed.
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Old 05-11-2022, 09:12 AM   #2
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It is highly unlikely, if you are using a reasonable audio interface to the PC/Mac that the pre-amps in there are the source of or contributor to the background noise.

You don't say what Amp Sims you are using. That said, many Sims actually model the kind of 'noise' a cranked amp. If also added pedals even as sims in line too, these would add to the noise modelled floor whilst everything is idling.

Add to that that as soon as you open the guitar volume your pickups will add some noise possibly picking up interference from other electrical kit nearby (computer monitors etc. are a prime source).

So it very much depends what tone shaping you are seeking, if its a high gain sound the issue is more pronounced. Careful use of guitar controls, its location to noise sources and any noise gate settings is your start point.
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Old 05-11-2022, 09:32 AM   #3
Frank Lee Scarlett
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I'm betting that you're using single coil pick-ups?

If so, that's where your noise is coming from, and the same thing would happen through a real amp.

I've used a lot of sims and, if I have a noise problem, it's never been the sim's fault. For sure, some sim settings will amplify the pick-up noise more than others, but so will an amp that's set up for a face-melting hard rock/metal solo.
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Old 05-11-2022, 10:58 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kokconut View Post
I'm currently using a Presonus 44vsl and a Palmer Pan01 passive DI box. I have also tried to record the guitar conected directly to the instrument inputs, with the same result.
I doubt they’re exactly the same result. The passive DI is a step-down transform which reduces the signal level fairly significantly. That requires more gain from the preamp and usually means more noise at the other end. The second rule of gain staging is to try not to turn something down just to turn it up again later. It WILL affect your overall S/N ratio, and if you did some simple tests you could prove it.

But it’s probably not enough to help because it’s probably not the major contributor to the noise. Guitars just in general have a much lower S/N ratio than anything in the interface, so there is like 20s of decibels worth of wiggle room before the guitar input signal is low enough that the interface noise matters much. With SC pickups through a DI, you might be on the edge. I know I could tell the difference going from DI to actual direct unity input (pedal buffer to line input), but kind of only because my guitars are mostly pretty hot humbucking pickups and well shielded so not particularly noisy anyway, and it was only ever a real issue at live shows where the whole mix was stupid loud and even then only between songs.

It is at least worth trying some sort of boost or preamp before the interface. You’ll never find one that is perfectly quiet and flat and clean, but there are a lot of options which are plenty good enough. That’ll still only help so much, though.

This is an issue people struggled with before there were amp simulators or even computers, and our options aren’t much better now than the were previously. It’s always a compromise, and we sometimes have to use workarounds. Less gain or noise gate are the two most common solutions. Sometimes if I’m going for heavy distortion anyway, I use crossover distortion, which is basically sample-by-sample gating.

Edit - OK but actually first: Make sure it’s really a real problem! Sometimes we get caught up in little things that seem really big because we’re focused on them, but if we take a couple breaths and step or two back we might see it’s kind of not worth worrying about. In the actual context of the actual mix it might just not be an issue. In some contexts, it can actually be better to have that noise in there because that’s how you know it’s loud!

Last edited by ashcat_lt; 05-11-2022 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 05-11-2022, 07:08 PM   #5
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Thank you for all the time you have taken to reply.

I am going to clarify some things as I feel that I'm explaining myself like a closed book(as we say in Spain).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Lee Scarlett View Post
I'm betting that you're using single coil pick-ups?
I'm using humbucker pickups, Seymour Duncan sh-5 in the bridge and sh-2 in the neck of a single cut Dean.


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Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
I doubt they’re exactly the same result. The passive DI is a step-down transform which reduces the signal level fairly significantly. That requires more gain from the preamp and usually means more noise at the other end. The second rule of gain staging is to try not to turn something down just to turn it up again later. It WILL affect your overall S/N ratio, and if you did some simple tests you could prove it.
What I was trying to say is that I have tried to find out if I would get a better signal from the inbuilt instrument input of the Presonus or by using an external DI box.

With the guitar connected to the DI box, sending the out to one mic input of the Presonus and the through of the DI to one instrument input of the Presonus and adjusting the gain of both inputs to read identical peaks in Reaper, the result is that both signals are identical regarding frequency response, just differing in 0,1 dB of volume due to the not continuous adjustment of the Presonus knobs. But in both cases I'm recording a proper Hi-z signal.


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Originally Posted by Boogieshoes View Post
You don't say what Amp Sims you are using. That said, many Sims actually model the kind of 'noise' a cranked amp. If also added pedals even as sims in line too, these would add to the noise modelled floor whilst everything is idling.
I use several amp sims, depending of the ocasion and mood. I link below a few examples.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogieshoes View Post
It is highly unlikely, if you are using a reasonable audio interface to the PC/Mac that the pre-amps in there are the source of or contributor to the background noise.

Add to that that as soon as you open the guitar volume your pickups will add some noise possibly picking up interference from other electrical kit nearby (computer monitors etc. are a prime source).
Well, down below I attach a rar file with a bunch of recordings to clarify what kind of noise I'm refering to.


As I replied to ashcat, I have recorded a duplicated DI ("DI to mic input" and "DI through..."), you can see and hear that they are basically the same thing. The gain knobs are dialed at eleven o'clock on the interface, just enough gain to record a healthy signal peaking at -6 dB. Any other clip is captured from the mic input.

"Mic input with no cable connected" is a recorded signal of the mic preamp with no cable attached and with the same gain. All we hear is preamp noise.

"Guitar connected with volume closed, then volume full open" is a recorded signal of the whole setup to show if there is any interference between the guitar and other elements. Here I'm holding the guitar as I would do if I were playing, muting the strings with my left hand to not let them ring.

Then you have the several amp sims that I have used in this test. It is simply the "DI to mic" signal reamped in Reaper using the higain channel of every amp sim at default gain and eq, just a quick test. I have used a Marshall 1936V impulse response.

"Full sequence 4s, 4s, 4s..." is just 4 seconds of each recording glued together for an easier comparison of the noise between them.

"Full sequence ... Hybrit" is just the previous one reamped with the Hybrit amp sim to show the difference in noise throught every stage.


As you can see, the preamp alone generates a noticeable noise comparable to that of the guitar connected with no volume or even with the volume full open. This makes me think that the guitar itself isn't a problem as I can't hear any weird noise or interference. Just a little hum at low level with the volume open, but negligible compared to the preamp noise.

Then, on the reamped tracks you can see where the problem is. The very first seconds of noise, prior to play the guitar, can be cut with no problem, even a gate with a threshold of -70 dB or so can mute this noise. But after the last plectrum stroke, as the guitar signal is fading away and losing power, the noise emerges from the depths and kills half of the note tail. I think that I could use a clean note for about 9 seconds. This might seem a lot but, for artistic reasons, this is often very short.

Another thing that I have notice is that the gate cuts the noise at about -70 dB in the first place but with the ringing note the noise is way higher. If I wanted to cut it off closing the gate the threshold should be at around -30 dB.


Now, with all this said, I understand that the caracter and nature of a higain guitar amp is noisy, but I think that this case is excessive. I also use a Blackstar Ht-5 with a Tubescreamer in front of it for home practice when I can make a bit of noise and in this case the notes ring out from full distorsion to a faint blow that you can barely hear, only if you get your ear near to the speaker.



I have uploaded the recorded files to mega, please feel free to download them and take a look. It's only 40 mb.

https://mega.nz/file/YZcXFKYL#BUc_G0...9QY2lP1FzbXzUs
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Old 05-11-2022, 07:15 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Lee Scarlett View Post
I've used a lot of sims and, if I have a noise problem, it's never been the sim's fault.
Oh, yes, you are correct on this. As I said in the first post, I think that the amp sims are not noisy per se.

I think that the problem here is in the signal that is feeding the amp sims. That is what I'm trying to remedy but I don't know how.
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Old 05-12-2022, 03:39 PM   #7
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Depending how hot your signal is, it's possible that the noise is not going to go away. What a lot of people do is use a gate. I personally don't like using a gate on guitar because it's hard to get it just right, especially for a sustained note that decays over time. But you might want to give it a try.
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Old 05-13-2022, 10:53 AM   #8
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I am not in a place where I can deal with a rar file to listen to the samples. I will try to look when I am in a position to, but that won’t be for a few days at least. As I am answering you from a mobile device.

The interface pre amp noise (which I can’t hear at the moment) should be minimal, setting a level -6dB is not unreasonable. It will still pickup noise from the devices connected to the input though.

The HyBrit sim will, subject to gain settings, significantly amplify any signal it receives and add its own modelled ‘noise’ if it has some built in to the Sim (some do replicate the amps own noise), much as that of a cranked amp just ticking over. That means ‘any’ noise from the guitar, cables and any pedals positioned in front of the HyBrit will add to that noise all added together.

Humbucker pickups are good at reducing mains power hum and to a degree noise from strip lights etc. but they aren’t a cure all for all sources. If you are using hi gain the amp noise it likely to be appreciably higher and use of a noise gate can help. Tweaking the noise gate for the right threshold to allow guitar sound through and sufficient sustain (release) that it shuts off the noise at the best point for you. Use of a compressor may also help with the sustain thing too.

The trouble with sims is that unlink a cranked amp you don’t get the air movement and a resonance with the guitar and strings that is often used to give the natural sustain.

Sorry I can’t help more right at the moment.
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Old 05-13-2022, 11:30 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogieshoes View Post
The trouble with sims is that unlink a cranked amp you don’t get the air movement...
This is slightly OT, but also not a problem with the amp sim itself but rather with the monitoring system. I personally have no trouble getting feedback while playing through amp sims.
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Old 05-14-2022, 06:16 AM   #10
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This is slightly OT, but also not a problem with the amp sim itself but rather with the monitoring system. I personally have no trouble getting feedback while playing through amp sims.
Well appreciate the that went with that…. I personally struggle with SIMs having generally used amps and the having the physical feedback you can get from that through your body and the guitar. Using reasonably good studio monitors as I have whilst sounds may be good I find it hard to adjust to the change in dynamics and touch feedback. Everyone to to their own though, there are many players who use Modellers and Sims in favour of amps.

There are so many things that can also affect the OPs setup and I was drawing , possibly the wrong conclusion from their comments about using the Blackstar and tones vs noise floor. I can’t hear the rar file content and even then I may not have an answer.
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Old 05-14-2022, 08:22 AM   #11
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I see now where you were going there, and it kind of makes sense. My was that if you want it to feel like a loud amp in a room, then you need to make it loud in the room. My studio monitors can just about get there, but it pushes their limits, so I keep a powered PA speaker around for when I really want that extra push.
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Old 05-19-2022, 07:33 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kokconut View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokconut View Post
I'm using humbucker pickups, Seymour Duncan sh-5 in the bridge and sh-2 in the neck of a single cut Dean.
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What I was trying to say is that I have tried to find out if I would get a better signal from the inbuilt instrument input of the Presonus or by using an external DI box.
The noise in your recordings are nothing out of the ordinary tbh. It will not get much better by buying high-end interfaces and DI-boxes. A DI-box is probably most helpful if you constantly clip the pre-amps in your interface even when gain is set to 0, or if you want to split your signal to record an amp and the clean DI at the same time. If the DI-box is of good quality it shouldn't add any further noise (enough to make a difference at least), but sometimes it does. I always go straight into my interface to minimize the risk of extra noise.

Active pickups could help reduce the noise a bit, and if your guitar is not properly shielded you could buy some copper-foil and shield the insides yourself. Most modern guitars are already well shielded though.

I've basically only used Neural DSP plug-ins ever since the Fortin Nameless suite was released and I don't have any problems with noise for the most part. I have tried all of the amp sims that you used in your clips (the Lepou ones were probably the first ones I ever used long ago), but there are honestly much better amp sims available nowadays.

For free alternatives I would recommend to try ML Sound Lab Amped Roots and Stevie T for high gain, and the free stuff you get with Amplitube 5 for lower gain (don't care much for their high gain amps).

If you're prepared to spend some money I can highly recommend Neural DSP's amp sims! They are absolutely amazing (IMO). Download the 14 day free trial for them if you want to check them out. Line 6 Helix Native is also great if you are more interested in a all-in-one suite.

Last edited by JonLinnarson; 05-19-2022 at 07:47 AM.
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Old 05-19-2022, 11:57 AM   #13
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I'll go ahead and repeat what others have said. Gain staging optimizes the s/n ratio.

The way I do it is with a meter set to VU (I like this one) and stick it at the start of your chain. Raise the guitar input until heavy playing hits around 0. Move the meter down a slot and adjust the output of your first plugin in the same way. Rinse and repeat down the fx chain.

You'll hear people say gain staging isn't necessary in the digital age, but for any plugins that are emulating analog gear (like amp sims), they will have sweet spots on the dials and it behooves you to find them for each source.
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Old 05-19-2022, 12:49 PM   #14
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Just back in a place where I could handle the rar and I concur with @JonLinnarson comments about the noise levels in what you have and solutions. I can't vouch for the other SIMs as I haven't used them.

I hope you manage to find something you are happy with.
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Old 05-19-2022, 05:01 PM   #15
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At some point, I had an issue with something like this, with amp sims, and in the end it turned out it was interference from a USB device that was being amplified by the sim.

Couldnt be heard under normal circumstances but it was there. Getting the guitar looked at by the guitar guy helped, using shielded cables helped, but it was still there. Eventually I realised just unplugging whichever USB device it was got rid of it completely. Took me forever to find the culprit, same as when my monitor/screen was causing interference and just needed putting into a different mains socket

Its a long shot, but mentioning it just in case...

EDIT: Basically, unplug everything that isnt needed and see if that helps. I still have an issue where if my fridge powers on (!?), I'll get some noise on recordings

Last edited by maxdembo; 05-19-2022 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 05-27-2022, 07:51 AM   #16
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I have yet to solve the simple problem of noise due to proximity to my PC.

This problem has persisted for 15 years through many iterations of hardware. If my guitars are within a couple of feet, noise ramps up badly.

My Fender is most prone. Gibson much less so.

I think I'm just going to order some very long assorted cables, drill a conduit through the wall, and relocate the PC to a closet.
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Old 05-27-2022, 03:29 PM   #17
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I have yet to solve the simple problem of noise due to proximity to my PC.

This problem has persisted for 15 years through many iterations of hardware. If my guitars are within a couple of feet, noise ramps up badly.

My Fender is most prone. Gibson much less so.

I think I'm just going to order some very long assorted cables, drill a conduit through the wall, and relocate the PC to a closet.
Maybe a crazy question here ok. Are you using an old crt computer monitor, they are pretty much non existent These days I know. There were, due their design pretty darn awful for generating noise anywhere near guitar pickups and single coils in particular.

Even if you are using an LCD display they can generate a bit of noise due to the signals if they are old and not well designed. Perhaps switch off the monitor and see if that makes a difference.
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Old 05-27-2022, 05:34 PM   #18
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As a last resort you can use ReaFIR or Izotope noise reduction on it.
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Old 05-27-2022, 06:06 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Boogieshoes View Post
Maybe a crazy question here ok. Are you using an old crt computer monitor, they are pretty much non existent These days I know. There were, due their design pretty darn awful for generating noise anywhere near guitar pickups and single coils in particular.

Even if you are using an LCD display they can generate a bit of noise due to the signals if they are old and not well designed. Perhaps switch off the monitor and see if that makes a difference.
Thanks for the reply. No, haven't had CRT monitors for many many years. Everything I have is modern. I go through hardware at a ridiculous pace. My whole extended family uses my last generation cast-offs.

I even ditched every last piece of wireless anything. Amazing what even a mouse/keyboard combo can throw off... And proximity to in-use USB connectors in the front of the case is a leaky spot.

It's no big deal. I just put some distance between the computer and I and everything is fine. But just today I was practicing bass and when I leaned over to restart "Ramble On", there it was. Like an old friend.
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Old 06-04-2022, 10:43 PM   #20
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Tips:
A decent power supply to your equipment, stand further back from any electrical equipment to reduce certain noise problems.

Try an instance of Bertom Audio's Denoiser - It is my weapon of choice. Load it up before your amp sim of choice, it'll sort a lot of problems out.
That being said, single coils are noisy by design, hence the invention of the
Hum-bucker!

Noise is part of the magic in that case.

https://bertomaudio.com/
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