01-21-2022, 06:24 PM | #1 |
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Could switching from Windows to Linux improve latency issues?
As per the title, I'm wondering if installing Linux on my Windows laptop, and using Reaper that way, could iron out some awful latency issues I have with my Dell Vostro 5481. Any clues?
Currently, under windows, the laptop is great for basic useage but utter tripe when it comes to music production, with clicks and pops popping up under low stress conditions no matter how much I try to tweak the settings with ASIO, and LatencyMon wont even complete a check the DPC latency is so bad. It has 16GB of RAM and the CPU, an i5-8250U, is listed at 5,944 on PassMark - so I don't think those are the issue, nor is the 256GB SSD it's running. A search of the internet, where I read of other owners with similar issues, has led me to believe the laptop, at least under Windows, is just massively unsuitable for audio production. It'd be nice if I could utilise it for a bit more than just browsing the web; watching movies; and listening to mp3s. I was just going to buy a Macbook but it would save me some money if I can just use it with Linux instead. |
01-21-2022, 07:09 PM | #2 |
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Create a live bootable Linux DVD or flash drive and try it. You can install REAPER for Linux while booted up on a live disk and test it out.
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01-21-2022, 08:48 PM | #3 |
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01-22-2022, 09:19 AM | #4 |
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I think that would only be useful for linux testing, if you are using a live distro that is tuned for low latency. The tuning does a lot to make things work better. I would suggest trying something like a AV Linux or Ubuntu Studio if they allow live distros. That would be the only real true way to test Linux latency easily with a live distro.
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01-22-2022, 10:11 AM | #5 | |
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01-22-2022, 02:13 PM | #6 |
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Yes, but a untuned distro doesn’t really show what is really possible with Linux. What if this user wants to test to see what’s truly possible with Linux?
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01-22-2022, 02:32 PM | #7 | |
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Booting from a live Manjaro disk, I was able to play my most demanding projects for multitrack audio, and verify at the same time that I could run my Behringer UMC1820 at 64 samples latency like I was currently doing in Xubuntu. The next day when I installed Manjaro, I was confident that my audio interface would perform up to my needs. |
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01-22-2022, 03:10 PM | #8 | |
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01-22-2022, 03:19 PM | #9 | |
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One thing that has helped some laptop owners in the past is to turn off the WIFI on your laptop. (I don't know if the WIFI thing is still an issue in this era but it's easy enough to give it a try.) |
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01-22-2022, 03:25 PM | #10 | |||
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https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=210218 Quote:
Playing and recording audio or using native Linux VSTi plugins worked fine in Xubuntu at 64 samples latency before I started tweaking so Windows plugins also performed well. Quote:
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01-22-2022, 07:09 PM | #11 | ||
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I remembered the existence of the lowlatency kernel from a previous, albeit brief, tinkering with Linux a few years back so just went with a full install of the latest Ubuntu LTS. Unfortunately, I didn't happen upon Ubuntu Studio until just after I'd run the generic install but no biggie. Anyway, searching for info about the kernel led me to the handy system configuration guide at linuxaudio.org that helped me run QuickScan and make all of the tweaks it suggested (after some googling). Installed Jack too, and got Reaper running. All good, so far, only I've not had time to download and test any plugins yet. My M32 keyboard works well enough controlling the stock ones though, which I'm very pleased about. I've just installed Sitala using the Ubuntu software manager but Reaper isn't recognising it, hopefully some more googling will come up with something. Cheers folks! Edit: I've just noticed the Sitala thread on the first page, with any luck that'll help. |
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01-22-2022, 07:14 PM | #12 |
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The WIFI thing is a Windows issue and not, as far as I know, anything to do with Linux. I thought it might ease your burden in Windows until you get comfy with Linux.
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01-22-2022, 07:52 PM | #13 | |
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If Linux fails to impress I'll try disabling the wifi on Windows though, thanks! |
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01-23-2022, 01:04 PM | #14 |
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I've just installed Manjaro on my old quad core i7 Hp laptop and with my steinberg UR22c I'm getting great performance at 32 sample buffers...reportedly less than 1ms latency, which is better than the windows partition. I'm running jack and Reaper and it's really very snappy.
The current project opens as fast as I can hit 'enter' .... pretty impressive. M
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01-23-2022, 02:56 PM | #15 | |
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I started having problems everytime I'd run Reaper, other video and audio applications would freeze. So I installed Ubuntu Studio Controls and bridged JACK and Pulseaudio (maybe ALSA too, can't remember) with which everything seemed fine until I rebooted (before this I'd rebooted a dozen or so times, just from setting everything up, the kernel etc; all without issue). Upon reboot this time, however, I just got a persistent blank screen after logging on and after previously messing around in terminal for hours getting the system setup - something I'm prepared to do to an extent but don't particularly enjoy - that was the last straw. I guess I could have used the live usb to attempt recovery but I'd had enough by then. Linux just isn't user-friendly enough for me... yet. I don't want to be somewhere on the other side of the world trying enjoy my vacation, yet having to deal with issues like this should they arise, so I think I'll just get a Macbook instead. Maybe another distro, ie Manjaro, could be suitable but I'm all out of motivation, and time, to try atm. I was further demotivated when after deleting the Ubuntu partition and trying to fix the mbr with Windows' recovery tool (as per suggested in multiple guides), it wiped the GRUB options but I'd still get a screen mentining something, or other, GRUB-related (a bunch of command options, or something, iirc) with no obvious way to boot anything, instead of booting Windows, and so I rather annoyingly had to resort to reinstalling. If I ever give Linux another crack it'll have to be on a mono-boot machine. Thanks for the suggestion though, it's good to know there are some decent options out there if I ever return. |
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01-23-2022, 04:44 PM | #16 | |
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Manjaro installs stock with a low latency kernel and using ALSA is the easiest audio system for REAPER because it's the closest to the OS. JACK is a layer that runs on top of ALSA and adds unnecessary complication to getting things to work. |
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01-23-2022, 09:12 PM | #17 | |
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01-24-2022, 03:05 AM | #18 | |
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I can uninstall it and run directly with same/better performance just using ALSA? M
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01-24-2022, 06:47 AM | #19 |
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I re-purposed an old laptop to run Ubuntu Studio for the sole purpose of connecting to Jamulus, to jam and rehearse with a band during lockdown.
I tried it first from a bootable USB in my Windows laptop. On either laptop, the latency under Linux is consistently 10-20 ms better than the identical software running in Windows. Doesn't seem like much, but it makes a big difference when playing with other musicians. $0.02 |
01-24-2022, 06:50 AM | #20 | |
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01-24-2022, 09:30 AM | #21 |
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01-24-2022, 09:38 AM | #22 |
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great.... off to give it a go
I shall report back. M
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03-31-2022, 10:36 AM | #23 | |
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Same Here
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03-31-2022, 01:08 PM | #24 |
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It sure did for me...ever had 5ms round-trip latency in Winblows, lol? Solved a slew of other annoyances Windows has been doling out for decades. Pipewire is amazing. Yabridge is amazing. Manjaro is amazing. Simply hasn't been a better time to switch.
I tried Ubuntu Studio about 5 years ago, but with Carla et al I could still only run 10% of my plugins and they were buggy. Now the vast majority run even better than in Windows! Just make sure you clear at least a few days to adapt, learn and correct the mistakes you'll inevitably make getting things set up. Good news is that once it's set up, you'll never have to think about it again. No forced update in the background is going to throw a spanner into the works. A few major caveats: No iZotope (they don't support cloud or maschine ilok and Linux can't recognize the dongle. No NI hardware. My Maschine and Komplete Keyboard are now running on an old, but dedicated Win10 laptop. It's not how I prefer to work, but at least being committed to the audio that setup is producing should force me out of some of my indecisiveness. All the software works flawlessly though. Certain plugin managers are finicky or broken (Waves, Softube). I had to install Waves on Windows and then copy over all the files from: 64-bit — C:\Program Files\VSTPlugins 32-bit — C:\Program Files (x86)\VSTPlugins to the same folders under Wine. With Softube I had to d/l the individual installers on Windows and then run them in Manjaro. https://www.waves.com/support/locate...lug-ins-folder No one asked, but here are my go-to guides for the moment, after having gone through the install process numerous times with various other old and conflicting guides: Install: https://github.com/ElizabethHarmon/M...main/README.md. Stop after step 8 if you want to use Pipewire (yes, you do). I'd suggest btrfs as a filesystem. I'm no expert, but instantaneous backups and multi-partition volumes has me sold. I guess it's fatally incompatible with RAID 5 & 6 though, if that's a concern. Note that you'll need 2 separate USB sticks (or SD card if your computer can boot from that) to complete the setup. You use one as an installer to create a "Live" installation on the other, which will then be used for the actual installation. Setup: https://averagelinuxuser.com/manjaro...after-install/ Pipewire: Simply install the package and it's dependencies from the add/remove programs manager. It's really that easy. Wine: https://github.com/Frogging-Family/w...r/wine-tkg-git. This is an optimized branch and not necessary, but it's certainly good and not hard to install. I had the best luck with staging v7.0, which you can define in the cfg file after cloning the git. Yabridge: https://github.com/robbert-vdh/yabridge Enjoy!
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03-31-2022, 01:10 PM | #25 |
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Any special reason you guys are still suggesting to use ALSA though? Because Pipewire is awesome. It's also a one-click install.
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03-31-2022, 09:46 PM | #26 |
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A single daw using just alsa can allow for great compositions. But I want my entire OS to be the daw, 'all hands on deck' so to speak. I use a variety of hardware instruments for input, and a variety of standalone executable audio softwares, and Reaper for my main daw app. I need a gui system to make easy connections between everything. Jackd and it's various connection utilities make that possible, and without ruining performance.
I have yet to see anything so useful in alsa-only, or pipewire setups. I wouldn't mind using basic commands to establish connections, if they are sensible like name-of-device-outout connect-to name-of-software-input name-of-software-output connect-to name-of-device-input (which is how the qjackctl gui visually connects things) If Pipewire coders have made, or plan on providing visual and/or command based connections that are easier to manage/troubleshoot than what currently exists, they'd be wise to document that soon, and in depth. I doubt that a nebulous undocumented pipewire wafting about in the sky will inspire musicians to include linux in their toolbox. Performance is already good enough, easy enough to configure, and ready-to-play in audio distros If anyone has personal pipewire or alsa config and connection examples to share, that can do what qjackctl does, I'm all for learning new and better solutions! Cheers
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03-31-2022, 10:04 PM | #27 |
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I did see this in-progress project for patching in pipewire: https://github.com/Ax9D/pw-viz
But yeah Jack is working perfectly for me, or just plain ALSA if I'm purely in Reaper. It's my understanding I could achieve better round trip latency on a tuned pipewire system but I don't think I'll bother with config until it's less of a moving target. |
04-01-2022, 12:52 AM | #28 | |||
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But holy shit! A modular routing interface like in that link (reminds me of Unreal Engine blueprints) would be a dream come true! It's exactly what I was hoping the routing matrix in Reaper would turn out...
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04-01-2022, 03:58 AM | #29 |
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I compose relatively busy MIDI tracks (40+ independent instruments) and play live with Linux/Manjaro in my job as a music teacher in a school, and from my experience in those activities I can safely say that, performance-wise, ALSA is better than JACK. I get hiccups (with that awful beep noise) sooner with JACK; although I use it too for all its modular glory.
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04-01-2022, 05:05 AM | #30 | |
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I definitely intend to switch to pipewire as soon as it matures a bit for pro audio. Not really sure why this was happening, might also be specific to my sound card... Has anyone else experienced similar issues?
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04-01-2022, 06:00 AM | #31 | |
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Jack Winter told me I should exit REAPER between each test, because when REAPER first grabs the audio device, that's where the variation becomes established. I ran the loopback test ten times in a row, along with Kenny's test to measure hidden latency, and then entered an offset in REAPER that was the average of those ten tests. |
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04-01-2022, 08:36 AM | #32 |
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I have a tough time trying to tweak Windows to not do any strange things causing totally random dropouts (independent of CPU usage). When I made a Linux setup, then I could have lower latency without any such issues. However I have a stupid issue while using JACK. My MIDI devices were randomly shuffled each time I connected them to different USB ports. Using pure ALSA solved this problem.
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04-01-2022, 09:20 AM | #33 | |
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The naming is still shit (like system:midi_capture_1 etc), and I think it only works during startup. No ideas what the jack devs were thinking here... One of the reasons I'm looking forward to using pipewire.
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04-01-2022, 12:13 PM | #34 |
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Simplicity would be the only real reason--that and I don't use JACK for anything. If it's not needed, there's no reason to add the extra layer in with everything else. However, if it's needed, it's nice to know that JACK is there for you.
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04-10-2022, 12:09 PM | #35 | |
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In 2022 when deciding on an audio OS, it's less about performance and more about privacy concerns and the brilliant open source software and plugins that are a click away in your favorite Linux package manager. Oh yeah, my favorite Cockos DAW also runs on Linux. Yay. |
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