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Old 09-23-2021, 04:57 AM   #1
airon
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Default Track Send Mute - fix incomplete implementation

Hate doing this to you gentlemen, but you've forgotten something vital for us automation users. And it has been brought up for years now too .

Track Send Mutes
They are in fact two mute switches, just like the volume control has both the Trim/Read volume and the envelope-driven volume control.
Setting up the problem
This requires a control surface, because this concerns control surfaces, and supporting THEM are the problem.

And herein probably lies the biggest problem, which is an assumption I do admit, but it seems striking to me that you've not dealt with this problem for years.

None of you guys have any equipment that displays Track Send Mute states. You've never experienced this problem because you could never verify it.

First let's set up the situation.
  1. Create two tracks

  2. Create a send from one to the other

  3. In the Envelope window of the source track, arm the Send Mute and create some envelope points for the envelope that pops up.

    Some UNMUTED and MUTED states that can show off the state in both the TCP/MCP gui and the control surface.

  4. Hit play and look at your lights on the TCP/MCP (or control surface if you have one that can show it) blinking if it can show the Track Send Mute.
So what's the problem

Let's say you've never used any control surface, and therefore the the CONTROL SURFACE API which includes CSIs TrackSendMute command, to mute a Track Send. After all, this only switches the static TRACK SEND MUTE, not the envelope-driven one.

The envelope playback lights and darkens the track send mute buttons on any control surface just fine.


If you've used the CONTROL SURFACE API to mute a Track Send, it does not. It doesn't matter what the envelope does for the TACK SEND MUTE.

And that's the problem.

The TRACK SEND MUTE envelope is inaccessible to the CONTROL SURFACE API, and therefore all control surfaces, including OSC-types btw.

The Track Send Mute available to the CONTROL SURFACE API is very much unlike the TRACK VOLUME, where it is required to be in the TRIM/READ automation mode to control the static track volume.

Only during Latch,Latch-Preview,Touch and Write modes is the TRACK VOLUME envelope accessible(and via hand-editing the envelopes obviously). The switch from controlling the envelope instead of the static track volume is automatic to the user.

This is not the case for the TRACK SEND MUTE envelope. It is completely inaccessible to the CONTROL SURFACE API. At least that's what I'm told by all the csurf developers.

The command(s?) to control the TRACK SEND MUTE do absolutely nothing to the envelopes in Latch/Latch-Preview/Touch/Write.


I use CSI for this, and have a dedicated zone just to display and control TRACK SEND VOLUME and MUTE of each send. The mute switches are of no use to me as I need to automate them.

Yes, there's a workaround with the actions for toggling the mutes on track send x. No, it's not enough to leave it at that like it has been for years.

Yes, it needs to be accessible to control surface API users, and while you're at it, for OSC users as well.


Hopefully this rough description is enough to spring you guys in to action to add this small bit of functionality in to Reaper for the benefit of folks who need it, which I'm sure is more than just me.

Thank you for reading this far, if you did .
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Last edited by airon; 09-23-2021 at 05:03 AM.
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Old 09-25-2021, 10:56 AM   #2
Geoff Waddington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Hate doing this to you gentlemen, but you've forgotten something vital for us automation users. And it has been brought up for years now too .

Track Send Mutes
They are in fact two mute switches, just like the volume control has both the Trim/Read volume and the envelope-driven volume control.
Setting up the problem
This requires a control surface, because this concerns control surfaces, and supporting THEM are the problem.

And herein probably lies the biggest problem, which is an assumption I do admit, but it seems striking to me that you've not dealt with this problem for years.

None of you guys have any equipment that displays Track Send Mute states. You've never experienced this problem because you could never verify it.

First let's set up the situation.
  1. Create two tracks

  2. Create a send from one to the other

  3. In the Envelope window of the source track, arm the Send Mute and create some envelope points for the envelope that pops up.

    Some UNMUTED and MUTED states that can show off the state in both the TCP/MCP gui and the control surface.

  4. Hit play and look at your lights on the TCP/MCP (or control surface if you have one that can show it) blinking if it can show the Track Send Mute.
So what's the problem

Let's say you've never used any control surface, and therefore the the CONTROL SURFACE API which includes CSIs TrackSendMute command, to mute a Track Send. After all, this only switches the static TRACK SEND MUTE, not the envelope-driven one.

The envelope playback lights and darkens the track send mute buttons on any control surface just fine.


If you've used the CONTROL SURFACE API to mute a Track Send, it does not. It doesn't matter what the envelope does for the TACK SEND MUTE.

And that's the problem.

The TRACK SEND MUTE envelope is inaccessible to the CONTROL SURFACE API, and therefore all control surfaces, including OSC-types btw.

The Track Send Mute available to the CONTROL SURFACE API is very much unlike the TRACK VOLUME, where it is required to be in the TRIM/READ automation mode to control the static track volume.

Only during Latch,Latch-Preview,Touch and Write modes is the TRACK VOLUME envelope accessible(and via hand-editing the envelopes obviously). The switch from controlling the envelope instead of the static track volume is automatic to the user.

This is not the case for the TRACK SEND MUTE envelope. It is completely inaccessible to the CONTROL SURFACE API. At least that's what I'm told by all the csurf developers.

The command(s?) to control the TRACK SEND MUTE do absolutely nothing to the envelopes in Latch/Latch-Preview/Touch/Write.


I use CSI for this, and have a dedicated zone just to display and control TRACK SEND VOLUME and MUTE of each send. The mute switches are of no use to me as I need to automate them.

Yes, there's a workaround with the actions for toggling the mutes on track send x. No, it's not enough to leave it at that like it has been for years.

Yes, it needs to be accessible to control surface API users, and while you're at it, for OSC users as well.


Hopefully this rough description is enough to spring you guys in to action to add this small bit of functionality in to Reaper for the benefit of folks who need it, which I'm sure is more than just me.

Thank you for reading this far, if you did .
Had a quick look, seems there may already be an API to do this, investigating...
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Old 09-25-2021, 11:51 AM   #3
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Yes, ToggleTrackSendUIMute() if I'm understanding correctly (thread where this came up and I found out about it: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=257643)
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Old 09-29-2021, 01:20 AM   #4
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That would be awesome if this was put to use.

Justin , Schwas , I‘m running an OSC surface via Lemur on an iOS device. How about OSC supporting Track Send Mutes ?

Or did you do it without me noticing ?
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