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05-02-2019, 10:26 AM
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#401
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,034
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I've just scratched the surface, but the concept is very good allowing alternative layouts to be attempted without any knowledge of themes or scripting.
I have a question regarding the automation of the concept.
Will it be possible to assign function keys to control aspects of the script?
If my question is not clear let me know and I'll provide an example or two.
Very interesting UI approach White Tie.
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05-02-2019, 10:30 AM
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#402
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Mortal
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wickenburg, Arizona
Posts: 14,047
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna
In fairness, contrast is a pretty important part of the functionality of a theme and functionality is what's supposed to be discussed.
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Its EVERYTHING (nearly)
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05-02-2019, 10:34 AM
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#403
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Mortal
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wickenburg, Arizona
Posts: 14,047
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Its funny because White Tie once explained to me (and made me eternally paranoid about) how you shouldn't use colors that are very close together for similar touching elements that need to be distinguished from each other (and introduced the concept of "web safe" to me)
Its important!
I'm chalking it up to this being still very early, but the Apologetics are kind of scaring me.
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05-02-2019, 11:57 AM
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#404
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 1,343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna
Subjective, but only up to a point. The theme *is* fairly dark, and a number of elements *don't* have much contrast. For example, compare the Mute and Solo buttons here versus v5 - the letters are much easier to read in v5. Likewise, look at the text in the MCP for the track's input - the difference between the text and the background is fairly small.
Thus, anyone with questionable eyesight is likely to struggle and we know that there are Reaper users in that category. Contrast between color 1 and color 2 is also something that can be measured, and there are standards used on the web to avoid issues like this.
WT says that all of his testers "passed" this - great. Did any of the testers have poor vision? Or poorly-calibrated screens? Does a pass mean "I love it!" or simply "I didn't notice it enough to complain"?
My vision is fairly good, I've looked at it on a number of different monitors with different settings, and I feel the beginnings of eye-strain after a couple of minutes. I'm also not the only who has expressed discomfort, which suggests to me that the testing process may have been flawed.
WT has said he went for different levels of contrast to separate different levels of importance in the elements, which is perfectly fine, but the argument from myself and evidently a number of others is that the low end of that hierarchy is too low, as it was in a few places for v5.
Good vision and a properly-calibrated monitor shouldn't be prerequisites for being able to use a theme. A default theme, especially, should be useable by as much of the expected user-base as possible and should thus, in my opinion, err on the side of being too accessible rather than going for "how far can I push this before people yell at me?"
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Totally agree.
__________________
Magnus Lindberg Productions - VRTKL Audio - Redmount Studios
magnuslindberg.com
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05-02-2019, 12:15 PM
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#405
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: France
Posts: 3,698
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The transparency in FX and Envelope buttons on TCP is normal ?
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05-02-2019, 12:31 PM
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#406
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Latest versions appears to work ok in a 10 minute scan.
The TCP master track looks weird with stretched images. I assume it's not done yet.
Anyone else want to control what the global default layout is from the script, instead of the Screenset/Layouts view ? I would not mind at all .
As for contrast. It's a shame we can't globally control such a thing yet. That's just not what Reapers UI can do I presume. Even if it was possible, this might be rather hard to get right so people don't mess up their UI too much. This is Reaper though, so why not let them. Just a fantasy at this time.
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05-02-2019, 01:19 PM
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#407
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon
Even if it was possible, this might be rather hard to get right so people don't mess up their UI too much.
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When I first started working in "big" studios, I was so excited because they had such elaborate headphone boxes with 16 busses so the singer could control their own mix.
Every session I used it on, I was told to come in the booth because the singer thought there was something wrong with the headphones. Turns out, great singers and great mixers are NOT the same people.
From those days on, the singer gets the mix that I'm hearing. Period.
Last edited by Kenny Gioia; 05-02-2019 at 03:12 PM.
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05-02-2019, 01:28 PM
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#408
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Leipzig
Posts: 6,621
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Quote:
Lokasenna
In fairness, contrast is a pretty important part of the functionality of a theme and functionality is what's supposed to be discussed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob
Not enough contrast.for people with dodgy eyesight like me,contrast and brightness is essential which is why ive always used default theme no 3
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Contrast also helps, when one is colorblind to separate two different colors, who share the same brightness.
Otherwise the stuff gets mixed up for them visually.
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05-02-2019, 02:18 PM
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#409
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: They put me in a home.
Posts: 3,432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna
WT says that all of his testers "passed" this - great. Did any of the testers have poor vision? Or poorly-calibrated screens? Does a pass mean "I love it!" or simply "I didn't notice it enough to complain"?
My vision is fairly good, I've looked at it on a number of different monitors with different settings, and I feel the beginnings of eye-strain after a couple of minutes. I'm also not the only who has expressed discomfort, which suggests to me that the testing process may have been flawed.
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Agree completely. Nailed it.
__________________
47.8% of statistics are made up.
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05-02-2019, 02:57 PM
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#410
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 863
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ISSUE: Folder GFX Glitches Using Borders
I really like the look of the border around folder tracks, but I found a glitch.
Track 3 is a folder, and 4 & 5 are children:
In the TCP, dragging 5 out of the folder results in this:
Clicking in the mixer refreshes the view back to normal.
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05-02-2019, 03:02 PM
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#411
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
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Some of you need to re-read the OP. Griping endlessly about design is counterproductive and it's already been repeated many times that it's not about to change. Move on.
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05-02-2019, 03:41 PM
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#412
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 186
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I find the chrome'd circular volume fader in TCP hard to discern visually. the chrome eats up a lot of visual information, the marker-line is very subtle and it does not reach all the way to the outer rim of the fader (why?) so that 9 o clock looks a lot like 3 o clock from a glance. It is the same with v5 of course, but i really expected V6 to offer something better after all this time.
Given that the themes design objective is visual hierarchy and helping to "draw the eye to different sections", i find it puzzling that there is no contrast at all between transport bar, mixer and TCP. It makes a lot of functionally separate elements blend together visually more than i'm okay with.
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05-02-2019, 03:47 PM
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#413
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie
...OS-drawn and un-themable elements are as bright as they've always been...
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I was hoping 6 might finally have been when we get rid of them
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05-02-2019, 03:50 PM
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#414
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 186
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This image shows what happens with contrast for certain track colors with transparent elements.
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05-02-2019, 04:42 PM
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#415
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Mortal
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wickenburg, Arizona
Posts: 14,047
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxAsteria
Some of you need to re-read the OP. Griping endlessly about design is counterproductive and it's already been repeated many times that it's not about to change. Move on.
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Not at all, this is EXACTLY why reaper was made in the first place. Developers being set in stone and not willing to understand what the actual users of the software had to do all day in front of customers
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05-02-2019, 04:46 PM
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#416
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Terra incognita
Posts: 7,670
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Some "noise" appears left of Mute and Solo when the track panels are dragged really narrow to the left. Seems to happen only if meter location is set to right in theme adjuster.
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05-02-2019, 04:46 PM
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#417
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Mortal
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wickenburg, Arizona
Posts: 14,047
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For example, this isnt an issue of taste, its actually nearly impossible to see the grid lines and stretch marker text.
Its not something that shouldn't be changed at this point, no matter how many tantrums are thrown, its an actual flaw in use
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05-02-2019, 04:49 PM
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#418
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio
Not at all
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Quote:
I consider the visual styling of the theme to be pretty much final
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Quote:
We're not going to do design by committee on the forum
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Quote:
If you reply endlessly to this post, you will be proving my point that discussions about design swamp testing threads.
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Sure about that?
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05-02-2019, 05:11 PM
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#419
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 7,570
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when item volumes are changed it looks pretty fug, out of place.
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05-02-2019, 05:43 PM
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#420
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: They put me in a home.
Posts: 3,432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todd_r
I was hoping 6 might finally have been when we get rid of them
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It will never happen until Reaper has their own window manager. So sad too. DP, Pro Tools, SONAR, Cubase, FL, Ableton. They all have their own non-OS window management. Looks nice and sleek with borders and clean GUI elements. Objective
__________________
47.8% of statistics are made up.
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05-02-2019, 06:24 PM
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#421
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Mortal
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wickenburg, Arizona
Posts: 14,047
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxAsteria
Sure about that?
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Yes, even if he were to crybully all the way to the bank about it, he'd be wrong, but I don't think that's actually what he's saying. White Tie is not so daft as to leave bugs in.
This is not a design discussion its a bug report
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05-02-2019, 09:33 PM
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#422
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Novosibirsk, Russia
Posts: 40
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Nice layouts and design
Awful, awful colors for mediaitems and midi-editor.
Also, they were permanently broken within theme change (from 6.0 to others)until the next launch
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05-02-2019, 11:17 PM
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#423
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 634
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Image Transparency
Hi ¡¡¡
First of all Congratulations for this new Theme and all it´s customizable options.
When I began with Reaper, made my own Theme and the idea of having a "Theme Control Panel" was in mind at that time.
- Where can I get a dev version of Reaper for use and check this new Theme ?
And the last thing, I have read post about icon transparency ...
Would it be possible to have in the "Theme Control Panel" an option for Transparency Images to be turned On/Off ? (loading then no transparency .png files)
- About folder collapse, I include in my theme 0 value to be totally close ( no little child tracks down parent track when totally collapse )
I know this can be tricky because when track selecting vía keyboard arrows it doesn't jump from parent track to next folder.
Maybe it would be a good idea to include that "Totally Close Folder State" and / if Reaper get that state info and behave with a "Totally Closed Folder Track" as a "Regular Track" when track seleting.
Cheers ¡¡¡
Last edited by Javier Robledo; 05-02-2019 at 11:26 PM.
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05-03-2019, 02:02 AM
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#424
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 10
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- You need a bold frame around the item so that you can clearly see where one is, where the next one is and the border between them.
- You need a brighter backlight for the selected track and there may be a frame around, now if they are colored, it’s not obvious which track is selected and active.
This is implemented well in Cubase for example.
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05-03-2019, 04:22 AM
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#425
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 14,214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundstudio
- You need a bold frame around the item so that you can clearly see where one is, where the next one is and the border between them.
- You need a brighter backlight for the selected track and there may be a frame around, now if they are colored, it’s not obvious which track is selected and active.
This is implemented well in Cubase for example.
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Definitely agree on both of these
You can using the theme editor add a line at the top of the selected item but to have this extend all the way round and also same for the track would be great.
If you split an item the split is invisible.
Maybe this is again related to high res displays as the higher you go the more invisible a single pixel thick line is
That goes for the "hit areas" too for editing, they are getting way too small on anything above 1080p
__________________
subproject FRs click here
note: don't search for my pseudonym on the web. The "musicbynumbers" you find is not me or the name I use for my own music.
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05-03-2019, 04:34 AM
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#426
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Black Forest
Posts: 5,054
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Some thoughts:
I personally find that 3 track designs are not enough. Are there plans to add more or the possibility to
add as many as we want by duplicating?
Would it be possible to hide the FX slots in the MCP on a track design basis?
For example: I would like to see the FX slots in my tracks and busses but not in VCAs,
because they don't make sense there. It would help tremendously to visually distinguish the
different track types.
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05-03-2019, 04:37 AM
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#427
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Stevie_
I personally find that 3 track designs are not enough. Are there plans to add more or the possibility to
add as many as we want by duplicating?
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This one is really nice. Agreed.
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05-03-2019, 05:02 AM
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#428
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Stevie_
Some thoughts:
I personally find that 3 track designs are not enough. Are there plans to add more or the possibility to
add as many as we want by duplicating?
Would it be possible to hide the FX slots in the MCP on a track design basis?
For example: I would like to see the FX slots in my tracks and busses but not in VCAs,
because they don't make sense there. It would help tremendously to visually distinguish the
different track types.
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Personally also think it seems abit limited
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05-03-2019, 05:12 AM
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#429
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: France
Posts: 3,698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Stevie_
For example: I would like to see the FX slots in my tracks and busses but not in VCAs, because they don't make sense there. It would help tremendously to visually distinguish the different track types.
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Already asked for the hability to declare dedicated folder and VCA designs in the lua script.
Got no answer from WT yet, but I suppose he's got much to do...
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05-03-2019, 05:18 AM
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#430
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Black Forest
Posts: 5,054
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Well, it's not even that we need dedicated folder or VCA designs. The way it is right now is perfect actually. We can define what should be visible on each track type. It doesn't get any more flexible.
I just wish we had more designs and the same freedom in MCP as in TCP.
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05-03-2019, 05:23 AM
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#431
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Pixel Pusher
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blighty
Posts: 4,950
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Selected status, throughout, is very much preliminary. My initial thoughts:
- I got a lot of user feedback against the dots I used for this in V5, because they taught a lesson (dots mean selected) on the TCP/MCP that I didn't follow through on media items (because I can't). I totally agree with this, but none the less currently think I'm probably going to be pragmatic and bring them back. Its a compromise.
- Years ago we experimented with a 'triangles in one or more corners', which fell afoul of the the indenting mechanism we had then. This has now changed, so I'm going to look at that again at some point.
- Lines around media items is something we experimented a lot with back in the day; works great unless you're one of the minority of users who does a lot of microedits when it quickly becomes a total mess. That doesn't rule out doing things above/below (pseudo shadows etc) but the first thing to try is doing it entirely with colour. How this dovetails with doing full-strength custom colours is always going to be a problem, because obviously they could choose very bright colours. There is an argument to be made that the answer to "I chose colours that made things look awful and/or ruined the selected status read" is "well don't do that then" but I will continue to try to find a 'nanny state' solution.
---------
Other things:
Sometimes when you fix something, it becomes fixed. Other times, it becomes more broken. The script is currently in the latter state, please bare with me
I understand that many users are extremely conservative about any changes whatsoever to the MIDI editor, ever. This is the time when experiments happen, please approach it with an open mind, if past experience holds we'll probably revert all changes at the 11th hour anyway. Its worth trying.
To the people PMing me their feedback : that's fine, I understand why you don't want to do it here, though that is disappointing and I'd rather you did. Please understand that I'm not being rude when I don't reply, I simply don't have time for individual responses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Stevie_
Some thoughts:
I personally find that 3 track designs are not enough. Are there plans to add more or the possibility to
add as many as we want by duplicating?
Would it be possible to hide the FX slots in the MCP on a track design basis?
For example: I would like to see the FX slots in my tracks and busses but not in VCAs,
because they don't make sense there. It would help tremendously to visually distinguish the
different track types.
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Please talk me through your workflow that leads you to need more than 3 layouts - because of the way this all works, it would be a big decision to add another one. However many I add will be one less than the number someone needs
The theme has no control over the 'extended mixer' (the FX slots) unless it takes total control, such as with the sidebar layout option.
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05-03-2019, 06:02 AM
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#432
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 14,214
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Maybe the micro edit thing could be solved with line thickness being adaptive like most of the item stuff now is or it disappears at a certain level.
Of course. Both of these would need Justin and Schwa involved I guess but it seems now is a good time for these big changes
It definitely one of the bigger issues I see day to day and in the new theme is making it super clear what (and what isn't) selected.
Add in the time selection as well and it's hard to do get something that works without some form of identify that is independent of colour.
The corners thing could work for tracks though
__________________
subproject FRs click here
note: don't search for my pseudonym on the web. The "musicbynumbers" you find is not me or the name I use for my own music.
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05-03-2019, 06:07 AM
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#433
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie
- Years ago we experimented with a 'triangles in one or more corners', which fell afoul of the the indenting mechanism we had then. This has now changed, so I'm going to look at that again at some point.
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Is it possible to make it like it works, for example, on Reddit? And you can click that vertical line to hide the folder content.
Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie
works great unless you're one of the minority of users who does a lot of microedits when it quickly becomes a total mess.
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Is it possible then to get those lines get away when item is shorter than x pixels?
P.S. And dots are great, thanks for adding them again!
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05-03-2019, 06:10 AM
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#434
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Pixel Pusher
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blighty
Posts: 4,950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers
The corners thing could work for tracks though
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Alas, no. Think of it this way : its a squashy image. If the triangle is, say, 8px wide, what happens when the user makes a cut at 7px? It not only looks crap, it also no longer does its job because now its not a triangle, its a smudge.
I understand the urge to make feature requests, but that has to be the very last resort. I made this problem, by attempting to provide to the users requests for full strength custom colours. If the selection problem can't be solved satisfactorily, I have to also (with regret) consider that this might be the factor that takes full strength custom colours off the table.
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05-03-2019, 06:24 AM
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#435
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie
I understand the urge to make feature requests, but that has to be the very last resort. I made this problem, by attempting to provide to the users requests for full strength custom colours. If the selection problem can't be solved satisfactorily, I have to also (with regret) consider that this might be the factor that takes full strength custom colours off the table.
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What about double lines? 1px external line can be yellow and 1px internal line will be black/white(any other colours) depending on track/item colour.
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05-03-2019, 06:27 AM
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#436
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 14,214
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Full strength colours is essential and very happy it's in there. Love being able to have colours match up if we want to. It helps for selection stuff too and I've enable the top line on items again which helps and gets us close. Also, having selected tracks physically change helps too (via your script).
It's more for default users as well though and giving something that clearly defines it straight off the bat so to speak.
The triangle thing would surely be a Justin thing (so that sizes don't change etc) which means that if we are to truly get a next gen theme going it needs the devs to do it right instead of you having to find workarounds which although appreciated, seems like a waste of your time trying to "fudge it" when it needs code support
From other DAWs. There are plenty of solutions surely that are independent of colour. I was looking for images a second ago of examples but not much luck yet.
__________________
subproject FRs click here
note: don't search for my pseudonym on the web. The "musicbynumbers" you find is not me or the name I use for my own music.
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05-03-2019, 06:49 AM
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#437
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie
S
- Lines around media items is something we experimented a lot with back in the day; works great unless you're one of the minority of users who does a lot of microedits when it quickly becomes a total mess. That doesn't rule out doing things above/below (pseudo shadows etc) but the first thing to try is doing it entirely with colour. How this dovetails with doing full-strength custom colours is always going to be a problem, because obviously they could choose very bright colours. There is an argument to be made that the answer to "I chose colours that made things look awful and/or ruined the selected status read" is "well don't do that then" but I will continue to try to find a 'nanny state' t is currently in the latter state, please bare with me
.
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Isn't there a way of making the outlines on items just brighten the existing custom colour? Or is that now not possible due to their "full strength". It's the way I have Imperial set up at present here:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=181439
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05-03-2019, 07:02 AM
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#438
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Scottish refugee in Germany
Posts: 4,368
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6
default 3
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05-03-2019, 07:04 AM
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#439
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Black Forest
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie
I understand that many users are extremely conservative about any changes whatsoever to the MIDI editor, ever. This is the time when experiments happen, please approach it with an open mind, if past experience holds we'll probably revert all changes at the 11th hour anyway. Its worth trying.
To the people PMing me their feedback : that's fine, I understand why you don't want to do it here, though that is disappointing and I'd rather you did. Please understand that I'm not being rude when I don't reply, I simply don't have time for individual responses.
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I'm not conservative concerning changes in the MIDI editor :P
The changes just need to make sense. The MIDI editor is a very delicate
area, because I (and some other folks) spend like 90% of my/their time there.
Things that absolutely need attention IMHO:
- events (notes and CCs) need to be clearly visible in any situation (events selected, muted or unselected).
- the grid should always be clearly visible in any grid setting (8th, 16th... triplet, dotted, etc...). Absolutely crucial!
- I personally prefer a darker MIDI editor, because it's easier on the eyes when working for several hours. Not too dark, could be grey-ish, too, but just not a plain white or a bright background as in v5.
- the pitch row color often gets neglected. It should have a color that still makes it visible in any situation but not making it too stand out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie
Please talk me through your workflow that leads you to need more than 3 layouts - because of the way this all works, it would be a big decision to add another one. However many I add will be one less than the number someone needs
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Avec plaisir:
I'm using these different track "types":
- VST instruments:
visible elements: the whole shebang
- audio
visible elements: the whole shebang
- send FX
visible elements: name, FX button
- folders
visible elements: name, FX button, volume knob
- VCAs
visible elements: name, volume, automation
- AUX tracks like MTC, retrospective record, etc...
visible elements: name
Not sure if it'S clear by only digesting the list. But I'll elaborat a bit.
On VSTi and audio tracks I need all elements to be visible, because these tracks are the most flexible.
However, send FX only need the name and the FX button. I'll never change the volume on that track and having only the FX button on the track clearly visually states, that this is an send FX track.
Folders act like busses here. However, my sends will always be outside that folder, so I will rarely touch the volume here, because this would break the dry/wet ratio of the applied send FX.
VCAs only control the volume of groups, so I only need the name and a volume fader and automation here. Everything else is not useful.
And finally the AUX tracks, that host some "tool"-tracks, that don't need anything else than the name.
Hope this helps!
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05-03-2019, 07:22 AM
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#440
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Pixel Pusher
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blighty
Posts: 4,950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Stevie_
Not sure if it'S clear by only digesting the list. But I'll elaborat a bit.
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Always elaborate if you can! Think of this from the point of view of someone else, who's asking for simplicity and wanting to know why I have complicated everything by adding another layout. If "Because _Stevie_ wanted it" were to be my answer, he could just say "well I don't want it so change it back."
You are able to do what you describe, so this is a discussion about it being better. Fair enough, is it a greater visual distinction between types that you are looking for, that cannot be well achieved with custom colours / track icons? Or is it a lack of space thing, so you want to sacrifice thing A for thing B? Is this the TCP or MCP or both that you're referring to?
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