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Old 01-18-2022, 09:32 AM   #1
iharpyou
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Default Expensive monitors I have but still not sure

OK

I have two YAMAHA HS8 Studio Monitor right in front of me. They are not cheap :P
I have also Sony 7506 studio monitor headphone not expensive but got a lot of recommendation on internet .

The problem is that the Sony monitor headphone has a lot of treble. It is too bright when I create an mp3 and listen to the song with any normal headphones they are not as bright as what I got in Sony headphone.

So now I have to decide to completely forget about the Sony monitor and rely on my Yamaha as it seems it is closer to normal headphones out there

What is your idea ?
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Old 01-18-2022, 11:05 AM   #2
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People will always listen on things sounding different than gear you make your music on. Use referencing, probably someone here already mentioned it - just take your favourite artists track and try to make your stuff sound reasonably close (at least as far as general balance goes, bass/treble levels etc.).
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Old 01-18-2022, 03:40 PM   #3
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Monitors come with acoustic treatment in mind, hence studio room space with such treatment and proper placement to your ear levels when you mix.

Mixing on headphones is much more complicated and is whole another field of audio mixing.
Also preparing a mix for headphone listening is quite different from regular 2 or 2.1 loudspeaker audio systems.
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Old 01-18-2022, 04:09 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iharpyou View Post
OK

I have two YAMAHA HS8 Studio Monitor right in front of me. They are not cheap :P
I have also Sony 7506 studio monitor headphone not expensive but got a lot of recommendation on internet .

The problem is that the Sony monitor headphone has a lot of treble. It is too bright when I create an mp3 and listen to the song with any normal headphones they are not as bright as what I got in Sony headphone.

So now I have to decide to completely forget about the Sony monitor and rely on my Yamaha as it seems it is closer to normal headphones out there

What is your idea ?
7506's are notoriously bright, that's why they are great tracking phones, poundin those transients at ya

As you have discovered, don't mix on them.

What size/shape is your room ?

What acoustic treatment, if any ?
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Old 01-19-2022, 03:36 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
7506's are notoriously bright, that's why they are great tracking phones, poundin those transients at ya

As you have discovered, don't mix on them.

What size/shape is your room ?

What acoustic treatment, if any ?
I did not give that a lot of thought about the room and placement of monitors
Just put it on my desk and it is a small room that I do my PC stuff

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Old 01-19-2022, 03:43 AM   #6
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YAMAHA HS8

Oh man, you should have gone with the MSP7. A TRUE studio monitor and cheaper since they stopped making them. The HS8 is not nearly as flat as the MSP7 Studio Monitors are.
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Old 01-19-2022, 03:54 AM   #7
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YAMAHA HS8

Oh man, you should have gone with the MSP7. A TRUE studio monitor and cheaper since they stopped making them. The HS8 is not nearly as flat as the MSP7 Studio Monitors are.
For some body like me the best monitors in the world still does not make much difference . I know nothing about this shit
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Old 01-19-2022, 04:57 AM   #8
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Hope the stuff sitting on top of the speaker doesn't rattle too much
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Old 01-19-2022, 05:01 AM   #9
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For some body like me the best monitors in the world still does not make much difference . I know nothing about this shit
Those headphones are notoriously bright, but with any headphones or speakers it takes time to learn how they affect the signal. Listening to commercial releases you know very well is the best way to do it.

My first thought is that your monitors are right up against the wall, I would move them forward if you have the space.

A quick guide for monitor placement here: https://www.uaudio.com/blog/studio-m...0center%20line.
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Old 01-19-2022, 05:57 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by iharpyou View Post
For some body like me the best monitors in the world still does not make much difference . I know nothing about this shit
Well I mean, I don’t know if they are the best, but certainly a better bang for the buck. Most important thing in a monitor is a flat response, but I’m betting you could throw a MiniDSP on the HS8 and get them flatter, plus account a bit for your room acoustics
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Old 01-19-2022, 06:17 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by iharpyou View Post
For some body like me the best monitors in the world still does not make much difference . I know nothing about this shit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post
Well I mean, I don’t know if they are the best, but certainly a better bang for the buck. Most important thing in a monitor is a flat response, but I’m betting you could throw a MiniDSP on the HS8 and get them flatter, plus account a bit for your room acoustics
I would be more inclined to use them without processing for at least a while, as the OP is just starting out it might be better for them to wait until they have trained their ears a bit. That way they will hear the problems, and hear the benefit of any money/time/effort they put into solving them.
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Old 01-19-2022, 08:21 AM   #12
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I would be more inclined to use them without processing for at least a while, as the OP is just starting out it might be better for them to wait until they have trained their ears a bit. That way they will hear the problems, and hear the benefit of any money/time/effort they put into solving them.
This doesn't work - I've been there. I was able to deliver good mixes in other studios, but couldn't "learn" the monitors in my own room. Enter Sonarworks and then ARC3 - that's the only way to learn IMVHO.
Without any correction and/or treatment you start to develop weird habits as most sonic aspects are masked and buried in a cloud of low-mid/bass buildup anyway.

My advice would be: 1) get flatter headphones (Senn 6xx, HiFimans, Monolith open back, Beyer 770 etc.). 2) Treat your room and compare the sound you hear in the headphones to what you hear in your room. 3) Try to demo a room correction software, given you have access to a dedicated measurement microphone. 4) Listen at really low levels. 5) Listen to commercial mixes you like and try to understand what happens when you change the EQ, the compression, the distortion. How little tweaks will actually change that master from pleasant to unbearable. 6) Listen analytically, try to hear the architecture of a mix. It's hard, but one day it'll click.

And btw. those Yamahas are really good for starting off, don't worry.
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Old 01-19-2022, 08:40 AM   #13
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This doesn't work - I've been there. I was able to deliver good mixes in other studios, but couldn't "learn" the monitors in my own room. Enter Sonarworks and then ARC3 - that's the only way to learn IMVHO.
Without any correction and/or treatment you start to develop weird habits as most sonic aspects are masked and buried in a cloud of low-mid/bass buildup anyway.

My advice would be: 1) get flatter headphones (Senn 6xx, HiFimans, Monolith open back, Beyer 770 etc.). 2) Treat your room and compare the sound you hear in the headphones to what you hear in your room. 3) Try to demo a room correction software, given you have access to a dedicated measurement microphone. 4) Listen at really low levels. 5) Listen to commercial mixes you like and try to understand what happens when you change the EQ, the compression, the distortion. How little tweaks will actually change that master from pleasant to unbearable. 6) Listen analytically, try to hear the architecture of a mix. It's hard, but one day it'll click.

And btw. those Yamahas are really good for starting off, don't worry.
Fair enough, I'll bow to your direct experience.
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:12 AM   #14
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Quote:
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I would be more inclined to use them without processing for at least a while, as the OP is just starting out it might be better for them to wait until they have trained their ears a bit. That way they will hear the problems, and hear the benefit of any money/time/effort they put into solving them.
Good point! I want to say the HS8 are more bass-heavy - a lot of people seem to tend to use them for EDM and stuff like that.

I will say when it comes to headphones, I tried a pair of Master Dynamic MW65 headphones and while I'm not sure how flat they are, I was running some distortion on guitars and vocals and I could quite literally hear the distortion added and the vocals/guitars separately - like, as two separate entities! I've never been able to do that even with the Yamahas or any other headphones - I suspect it's the 40mm Beryllium drivers, but yea, if you haven't tried them, try them. Super useful analytical tool to have. One of these days I'll get around to actually purchasing a pair I'm sure.
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:42 AM   #15
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2) Treat your room and compare the sound you hear in the headphones to what you hear in your room. 4) Listen at really low levels.
And btw. those Yamahas are really good for starting off, don't worry.
Those two cannot be stressed enough. Room treatment is huge, and I find I'm usually able to make better/quicker decisions on a mix when listening at a low level vs reference level. If it sounds good at low levels, I found it usually rocks at high levels as well.

As for room treatment, there are several good threads on here for that. You can DIY a lot of it and then you also get the satisfaction of saving money and knowing you really accomplished something! It doesn't take a whole lot of money for good results when it comes to room treatment (at least in my limited experience) and the more you spend it starts getting into diminishing returns: much like speakers

StoryTime: My father got into room treatment HEAVILY in his living room to the point where there were far more volume in Bass Traps (the huge round ones in addition to broadband panels he built all himself) at all different sizes than there was furniture, speakers, equipment, etc. in the room. Sounded amazing. Then he got re-married and guess what is no longer in the living room? I was so annoyed that he simply threw them all out instead of giving or selling them to me haha.
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Old 01-19-2022, 10:46 AM   #16
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Some people have golden ears very few!
Most of us have to learn to "Listen"
I would go with Monitors

I tried using headphones for years
they did not do the job for me and made me very tired.
Every set of monitors/speakers need running in just like the user.

To find out how your monitors present sounds to you get the spectrum of a musical track you like so play a track you like which is well mastered and take a shot of the spectrum it leaves on the eq you will have put on your master buss or Master track fx.
You can then listen to your liked music and see/hear how the lows mids and highs are presented to you through your monitors.
is the bass presented by the monitors low or high with regard to the mids and highs etc etc.
Doing this you know that the track you saw the spectrum of is a really well mastered one so you can take an account of the fact that if your monitors are presenting the bass low or high you can accept that and cater for that when you are monitoring for a great sound.


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Old 01-19-2022, 05:45 PM   #17
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I’ve gotten *better* at using headphones but nothing beats monitors for imaging. Headphones are fine for quick dirty mixes but monitors are really needed to polish it off
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Old 01-20-2022, 11:16 PM   #18
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Thank you very much for all your help. When I learn I will try to help others .
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Old 01-21-2022, 12:05 AM   #19
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For some body like me the best monitors in the world still does not make much difference . I know nothing about this shit
Great monitors are about 30% of the solution. Putting 8 or 10 Fiberglass or rockwool acoustic absorber panels on the wall at 'first reflection points' are the other 70%. This is a deep rabbithole though... Lots of advice on the web, probably 50% of it is wrong...

Here's a bit of reading on it, if you're inclined. (Written by a friend of mine)
http://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html
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Old 01-25-2022, 03:10 PM   #20
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Nothing wrong with mixing with headphones.
I do it a lot.
You really need some Open Backed headphones..

Try the classic AKG K240... and they cost less than £50.
Sennheiser's open back HD5xx or HD6xx are a more expensive, but worth it.

I have used closed back headphones, such as Sennheiser HD280Pro and HD25, for tracking but didn't like them for mixing.
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Old 01-25-2022, 03:41 PM   #21
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The more sources you can check your mix on the better and the better the mix, the less different it will sound across systems.

But if your room acoustics have never been adressed, your speakers will always lie to you; hence the ubiquitously suggested car-stereo test. That will really exaggerate any problems for you to plainly hear. Even tho that system is probably even less accurate than your room, it's a good, familiar reference point since. Even tinny laptop speakers can give you good info about your mix.
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Old 01-25-2022, 03:47 PM   #22
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Try the classic AKG K240... and they cost less than £50.
They're only semi-open. I only use mine for tracking drums, since they're pretty comfortable and not near enough to bleed into the mics. Never had good results trying to mix on em though.
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Old 01-25-2022, 04:35 PM   #23
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OK


So now I have to decide to completely forget about the Sony monitor and rely on my Yamaha as it seems it is closer to normal headphones out there

What is your idea ?
You have to learn what things sound like on both: because people that listen to your music *might listen to it on something as bright as the Sonys*.

So your process has to be to check what you do on the Sonys for being *too bright*; on the Yamahas for being too dull. At first that will be a wide range to you; over time, do it enough, you'll start anticipating whether something will be too bright/dull on each - because *you've learned the reproduction nature of each one*.

In fact, *because* you think the Sonys are bright, consider the fact that some people love them; you've got a good spread to represent "reality". You could start a mix off with the Sonys, switch to the Yamahas and find it too dull sounding, then brighten it; or vice versa, start on the Yamahas and find on the Sonys it's too bright.

AKG-240s are super neutral, you could go to them but then you may find yourself fighting the difference between the Yamahas and the 240s...
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Old 01-26-2022, 08:52 AM   #24
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Nothing wrong with mixing with headphones.
I do it a lot.
You really need some Open Backed headphones..

Try the classic AKG K240... and they cost less than £50.
Sennheiser's open back HD5xx or HD6xx are a more expensive, but worth it.

I have used closed back headphones, such as Sennheiser HD280Pro and HD25, for tracking but didn't like them for mixing.
I honestly often use the Seinhowser HD 560S ($199) for the rough mix and then switch to the Yamahas for final checks. The 560S headphones are pretty ruler-flat, unlike their more expensive cousins. I'd never try mixing on my Seinhower 650 or Grados since they are designed for listening, and are nowhere near a flat response.
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Old 01-26-2022, 10:23 AM   #25
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AKG-240s are super neutral
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he 560S headphones are pretty ruler-flat, unlike their more expensive cousins.
It's physically impossible for any headphone to be ruler-flat or neutral. The proximity to the ear is per se unnatural, so the developers have to come up with some compensation for the average consumer ... but unfortunately each listener's physiognomy is different, or even very different from that average.
The best strategy for mixing on headphones is an HRTF plugin in the Monitoring FX, which you then have to adjust to your perception, there's no way around. I suggest MyBino, as it's not only free, but also is one the latest plugins of that kind. It works like a charm for my ears/perception.
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Old 01-26-2022, 12:12 PM   #26
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It's physically impossible for any headphone to be ruler-flat or neutral. The proximity to the ear is per se unnatural, so the developers have to come up with some compensation for the average consumer ... but unfortunately each listener's physiognomy is different, or even very different from that average.
The best strategy for mixing on headphones is an HRTF plugin in the Monitoring FX, which you then have to adjust to your perception, there's no way around. I suggest MyBino, as it's not only free, but also is one the latest plugins of that kind. It works like a charm for my ears/perception.
Interesting, I will definitely check it out! Yea there’s definitely been some mixes I’ve done on the 560S that when I hear it on the Yamaha MSP7 monitors it become apparent there were problems and what they were. Pretty quickly fixed but still, anything that saves time mixing is a huge plus in my book!
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Old 01-26-2022, 01:05 PM   #27
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Interesting, I will definitely check it out! Yea there’s definitely been some mixes I’ve done on the 560S that when I hear it on the Yamaha MSP7 monitors it become apparent there were problems and what they were. Pretty quickly fixed but still, anything that saves time mixing is a huge plus in my book!
Great, please keep us updated about your impressions (hint: it might take 2 or 3 days to get used to it)!
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Old 01-27-2022, 08:55 AM   #28
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Endorsement: I bought a pair of AKG K240 DF Studio phones and a pair of AKG K140 Monitor phones back in 1983 or 4. They are both still working really well. My Sennheiser 650s are used 99% of the time for listening to music on my stereo, even though they ARE excellent quality. The AKG D240 DFs are flat and honest.

Mostly just that I am so used to them.
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Old 01-27-2022, 12:13 PM   #29
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Endorsement: I bought a pair of AKG K240 DF Studio phones and a pair o
I've had a pair since the late 80's, had to rewire them but other than that they sound similar to a newer pair I've used. Very neutral.
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