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Old 05-08-2017, 06:34 AM   #1
robgb
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Default Why Does Reaper Get a Bad Rap?

I've just come away from a forum where people were dissing Reaper left and right and singing the praises of Cubase. And despite my pointing out the virtues of Reaper, they're not having it.

I've used Cubase as well as pretty much every major DAW available (and some minor ones, too), and after years of switching from one to the next, finally gave Reaper a good, hard look and fell in love. I can't see going back to any other DAW at this point. And thanks to Kenny Gioia's tutorials, I've discovered that Reaper may be the most powerful DAW of them all.

So why does it get a bad rap from so many in the various recording forums? I just don't get it.
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Old 05-08-2017, 06:56 AM   #2
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Where you on a Cubase forum ?
Reaper has a good reputation in most places, its users dont.
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Old 05-08-2017, 07:05 AM   #3
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98% looks, 1% function, 1% lack of ARA and hence isn't on the Melodyne train
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Old 05-08-2017, 07:11 AM   #4
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So why does it get a bad rap from so many in the various recording forums? I just don't get it.
As someone that, till very recently, really disliked Reaper, I can tell you my reasons:
  • Defaults are not 'unified' - most traditional 'professional' workflows will require a lot of customizing of Reaper. This also applies to coming from another DAW, which requires a lot of research and customization to get things working how you expect.
  • Development is fast - This may seem like a good thing, but ~2 years ago Reaper was missing a number of features that are damn near necessities for me to get stuff done quickly enough to make $$. Even if I thought Reaper was super neat in 2014, it'd have slowed me down too much anyway.
  • UX is pretty bad - Floating windows everywhere. 3+ clicks for things that are 1 click in other products. Inconsistent naming. Inconsistent Spacing. Dock dragging is awful. Plugin management is very simple. Number of options is incredible, which can be a real turnoff.
  • V4 theme was pretty ugly. V3 was way, way worse. - Yeah. That's it. I like V5 personally though, especially with Lokasenna's Nitpicky edition.
  • A good bit of functionality is available via scripts - Sounds good right? Not if you're used to any other DAW. Having to install extensions for things you may feel are basic functionality is rather annoying. It doesn't help that no scripts have a unified GUI with Reaper or your Theme.
  • Scripts weren't always there - The addition of Lua scripting has really ramped up the available scripts and their usefulness. Until word gets out about work from people like HeDa, helgoboss, eugen2777, Lokasenna, MPL etc... then it will remain a mystery to folks how awesome Reaper can be.
  • Customization cuts off resources - So you finally have Reaper how you need it, but you need some help with feature X. Good luck! There's a high chance that you have to re-sort through your scripts, hotkeys, options, screensets, theme etc... to figure out how Reaper normally works. Only then can you really take advantage of a number of third-party resources easily.
  • Third-party resources were poor - Until somewhat recently, 3rd party resources for Reaper were behind a paywall or just plain bad. I'm really not a fan of the user-guide either. Basically for learning you have Kenny's videos and The Reaper Blog. They are both awesome, but It's a crapshoot if any other resources online address the current version or new workflows.
  • Cost - Due to some very strange logic, some folks think Reaper can't be good because it doesn't cost enough. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I somehow caught myself thinking this around v3. I kicked myself once I realized it.
  • Obnoxious users - There's some selection of users that go on other forums to randomly proclaim how amazing Reaper is, often wrongly or in the wrong context. I can't tell you how many times I've been reading a thread (or asked a question myself) and saw someone suggest Reaper. I open Reaper and find out that it can't even do what was being asked. Extremely frustrating.
  • macOS support is kinda bleh - There's a lot of shortcuts that don't work in Reaper that work in basically every other macOS program. Text shortcuts and Window management are big offenders. It still annoys me a lot.

So yeah. I covered a lot of this on my blog. You can see much of my recent journey with reaper here: http://admiralbumblebee.com/tags/#Reaper

Now I'm firmly in the camp that Reaper is probably the best DAW available after a lot of customization. A lot of the annoyances remain, but I can get things done way faster and have more fun.

I also really like the community here. It's a stark contrast to the Reaper community outside of this forum.

So that's my 2c. Inflation accounted for.
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Old 05-08-2017, 07:12 AM   #5
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Maybe because other daws have a marketing strategy and people buy that brain massaging.

Recently I've seen an article where Reaper was among "free and easy to learn" daws.
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Old 05-08-2017, 08:13 AM   #6
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As someone that, till very recently, really disliked Reaper, I can tell you my reasons:
All good reasons, depending on who you are and what you want. The need for customization, for example, is an asset in my estimation, because it allows you to create the perfect workflow for YOU, and not based on some developer's whims. It took me a couple of days to watch Kenny's tutorials and customize Reaper, and now I have a DAW that feels as if it's mine.

As for the GUI, I agree that the older ones were pretty horrible, but the ability to theme renders that moot. I can't think of any DAW more beautiful than the White Tie Imperial.

Anyway, I suspect a lot of people who are dissing Reaper are basing it on previous versions and haven't bothered to take a new, fresh look. It took Version 5 and Kenny's tutorials to get me on board.
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Old 05-08-2017, 08:31 AM   #7
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All good reasons, depending on who you are and what you want. The need for customization, for example, is an asset in my estimation, because it allows you to create the perfect workflow for YOU, and not based on some developer's whims. It took me a couple of days to watch Kenny's tutorials and customize Reaper, and now I have a DAW that feels as if it's mine.
I agree with your sentiment here, however there 2 cases of people switching to Reaper.
  • First there are people that are managing just fine with what they have. They may not be happy, but they are managing.
  • Second there are total newbies.

Both of these categories of people aren't naturally going to be excited about the customization. The first category is going to have to spend time (often frustrating) to get to things to the point where it's like their old daw, that they didn't even like. The second category is just going to get confused.

Of course this is a false dichotomy, but it probably covers a large portion of potential users. There are plenty of people (like me!) that relish an opportunity to immerse themselves in a new workflow it there's potential for it to work.


I feel like convincing someone to use Reaper is like walking up to someone and saying, "Oh, hey! Check out this amazing software. It's super great, but first you need to do a bunch of things to make it great..."

Huge turnoff to many people.

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Anyway, I suspect a lot of people who are dissing Reaper are basing it on previous versions and haven't bothered to take a new, fresh look. It took Version 5 and Kenny's tutorials to get me on board.
Yep. 100%. I still feel that Reaper 4 was not competitive as a DAW.

For many workflows, it's arguable that the current version isn't until/unless you install the appropriate scripts.
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Old 05-08-2017, 08:37 AM   #8
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It's the default settings. And default GUI. Turned me off for years until finally, like others, I decided to really dig in to Reaper and give it a chance. Discovering that I could in effect design my own DAW through deep customization was quite a revelation.

Some people are excited by that kind of possibility, others are not and never will be. Renoise is my other DAW, it's similar to Reaper in many ways (small team, inexpensive, a bit arcane, user scriptable, etc), attracts the same people, and Reaper is *very* popular among the Renoise crowd as a proper recording DAW. My father otoh is a Logic fundamentalist, he thinks I'm crazy for using Reaper, but I'd never go back to Logic and I think he's crazy for continuing to use it, knowing what I now know. I still have a sense of having *escaped* Logic, even though there are some features I miss (only a little).

Took me about six months to iron out Reaper, and now it's like breathing, comes that naturally, for the most part. Config adjustments continue, but I've hit a sweet spot that's just about right, can't imagine using anything else.

I'm "semi-pro", mostly a hobbyist, have a day job and only make $ in music on the side, but I can imagine this need to config Reaper being decisive turn off for many pros who just won't have the time to dig in to it. If I was full-time pro, I can think of several things I'd be worried about re: Reaper, actually.

My biggest Reaper complaint: the devs seem too in a hurry to add new features, great as those features are, and seem to be neglecting the core program. Too many old bugs still lurking. Though I suspect some of this will be ironed out for Reaper 6. Above all, perhaps too dependent on the willingness of unpaid 3rd parties to create and maintain features (SWS, the manual, all the scripting -- those guys aren't being paid, they could hang it up any time, leaving us all in the lurch)

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Old 05-08-2017, 08:46 AM   #9
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II decided to really dig in to Reaper and give it a chance. Discovering that I could in effect design my own DAW through deep customization was quite a revelation.
Same journey for me. I had it on my computer for years, didn't really get it, finally upgraded to 5, looked at the tutorials and thought holy shit, this thing is GREAT.
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Old 05-08-2017, 09:26 AM   #10
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Justin doesn't spend anything on the 'Murican "capitalism" illusion.

What is Avid's budget for advertising and promotion?
Steinberg?
Apple?

Cockos - $0.00.

Nobody is getting free copies to use, money spent on ads, endorsements. He's not playing The Game.
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Old 05-08-2017, 09:34 AM   #11
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Justin doesn't spend anything on the 'Murican "capitalism" illusion.

What is Avid's budget for advertising and promotion?
Steinberg?
Apple?

Cockos - $0.00.

Nobody is getting free copies to use, money spent on ads, endorsements. He's not playing The Game.
This, and also, have always found it interesting, despite their total lack of a marketing budget, Reaper still regularly gets a "Techniques" column in Sound on Sound taking up two or three pages. Says two things: they respect Reaper, and there are enough users out there that they feel justified giving it considerable space over the years even though they never see a dime from Cockos in advertising $.
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Old 05-08-2017, 10:34 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
Justin doesn't spend anything on the 'Murican "capitalism" illusion.

What is Avid's budget for advertising and promotion?
Steinberg?
Apple?

Cockos - $0.00.

Nobody is getting free copies to use, money spent on ads, endorsements. He's not playing The Game.
While in fact everybody who likes will get free copies to use , this is a very wise analysis. Also showing why we don't need to pay that much money for a Reaper license.

Reaper is for those who are able to take a look themselves instead of those who think they already are professionals and hence don't need to open their eyes any more to a wider picture.

-Michael

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Old 05-08-2017, 11:02 AM   #13
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So why does it get a bad rap from so many in the various recording forums? I just don't get it.
Seems pretty simple to me. We don't all like the same things and we always defend the ones we like and/or have a lot of money invested in, often by attacking everything else in sight.

Add that to the fact that 93.7% of people on internet forums will cheerfully rubbish anything they don't understand (and will even make up fake statistics to sound authoritative) and you've cracked it.

Steve
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:51 AM   #14
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So why does it get a bad rap from so many in the various recording forums?
Mainly. it is because they try to see REAPER as a DAW and not as a REAPER (Rapid Environment for Audio Prototyping and Efficient Recording)
I believe that REAPER defaults are not good on purpose. A strategy to force users to learn customizing REAPER, and make your own Rapid Environment.
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Old 05-08-2017, 12:01 PM   #15
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I can't think of any DAW more beautiful than the White Tie Imperial.
Yes, but he is not god. WALTER sucks.
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Old 05-08-2017, 01:38 PM   #16
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I believe that REAPER defaults are not good on purpose. A strategy to force users to learn customizing REAPER, and make your own Rapid Environment.
Maybe offering multiple pre-defined "customizations" at a predominant spot in the GUI - maybe even forcing a new user to select one out of small list - might be a good move.

I constantly vote for a tight integration of ReaPack in the main product to allow for easily finding and installing a certain range of add-ons. Maybe such a "full Customizations selection" might be integrated with ReaPack.

-Michael
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Old 05-08-2017, 01:53 PM   #17
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http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=181729

For me... BUGS!!! (I'll wait it out until some of these basic DAW core stuff thingies are fixed) And some (some not most) of you who are deep into the cult that everything is holy about REAPER...
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Old 05-08-2017, 02:08 PM   #18
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As if other DAWs don't have hundreds of bugs... People still create music with any of them, Reaper included. Some will just whine at the size of the bug list and say "I can't work with this", others don't whine and crank out music regardless.
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Old 05-08-2017, 02:20 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Robert Johnson III View Post
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=181729

For me... BUGS!!! (I'll wait it out until some of these basic DAW core stuff thingies are fixed) And some (some not most) of you who are deep into the cult that everything is holy about REAPER...
This is my experience as well... except it's not so bad.

When I encounter a bug in other DAWs, it's usually something that shuts down the flow totally. A crash, feature that is completely broken, some corruption of data, etc... My other main software currently has 2 guaranteed crashes if you use extremely common editing features!

All of the bugs I've found in Reaper so far are minor annoyances, and there's some sort of workaround. There's A LOT more of them than there are in the other DAWs I use, but none of them are catastrophic.
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Old 05-08-2017, 02:26 PM   #20
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As if other DAWs don't have hundreds of bugs... People still create music with any of them, Reaper included. Some will just whine at the size of the bug list and say "I can't work with this", others don't whine and crank out music regardless.
I whine about it because I like REAPER a lot… In the meantime I crank out music regardless, with some other DAW, no problem. I said “for me”…I think that list contains basic stuff that should have been fixed already (and there is more that is not in there that trips me up when I want to crank out music) Just saying…
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Old 05-08-2017, 02:27 PM   #21
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This is my experience as well... except it's not so bad.

When I encounter a bug in other DAWs, it's usually something that shuts down the flow totally. A crash, feature that is completely broken, some corruption of data, etc... My other main software currently has 2 guaranteed crashes if you use extremely common editing features!

All of the bugs I've found in Reaper so far are minor annoyances, and there's some sort of workaround. There's A LOT more of them than there are in the other DAWs I use, but none of them are catastrophic.
Maybe depends on your workflow… “Region moving/copying is completely unreliable if there are any tempo changes nearby:” Is a deal breaker for me…
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Old 05-08-2017, 02:33 PM   #22
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Maybe depends on your workflow… “Region moving/copying is completely unreliable if there are any tempo changes nearby:” Is a deal breaker for me…
That seems strange, since it's a fairly unique feature. I know there are analogues to this in Studio One, Cubase, DP, Tracktion and Reason... and none of them work totally correctly with tempo maps. Cubase's arranger comes close, but it has a good number of tempo map bugs too.

Would you mind explaining what it is that you can't achieve without this working? And what would you use instead?

You use Cubase right?
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:28 PM   #23
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That seems strange, since it's a fairly unique feature. I know there are analogues to this in Studio One, Cubase, DP, Tracktion and Reason... and none of them work totally correctly with tempo maps. Cubase's arranger comes close, but it has a good number of tempo map bugs too.

Would you mind explaining what it is that you can't achieve without this working? And what would you use instead?

You use Cubase right?
I use Studio One... Don't know about Cubase, DP, Tracktion and Reason but in Studio One I have zero issues with Tempo Maps... In REAPER: just to copy a region without the tempo map getting all out of whack.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByE...1XSmV1N1k/view

In S1 melodyne figures out the tempo map in seconds and I can drag that into the tempo track (or map it out manually). Then use regions to copy parts, try out stuff etc…

If you always record static to the grid this does not matter, but I like to let the tempo go with the flow (if possible). Probably every live recording, classical stuff, movie sync etc. needs tempo mapping…
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:46 PM   #24
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So why does it get a bad rap from so many in the various recording forums? I just don't get it.
because Reaper doesn't support Expression Maps;

and because if you want to draw Bezier curves of CC-messages, or if you want to warp the shape of your CC-data, in Cubase it takes 5 minutes in the operations-manual to learn how, but in Reaper it takes lots more minutes to learn how to do it.

It seems not mysterious to me why some people prefer tools that give them results in less minutes.
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:47 PM   #25
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let's keep it simple.... first of all I don't care to use any other DAW

next, I have not a clue as what your complaint is about regions and tempo maps...

I just did a dbl chk in case my memory was gone... made and copied several regions, each includes a tempo map and a few items...

it all did it perfectly....

It's not so much that I'm a reaper fan boi, but I'll tell ya, I'm about sick of these bitch mumble gripe threads.... over the years I've seen them come and go with great regularity and 99% of them just BS.

go use the 'better DAW' of your choice... live long and prosper.
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:00 PM   #26
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sick of these bitch mumble gripe threads.... over the years I've seen them come and go with great regularity
Have you considered spending less of your time reading internet-threads that make you feel sick?
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:41 PM   #27
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http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=181729

For me... BUGS!!! (I'll wait it out until some of these basic DAW core stuff thingies are fixed) And some (some not most) of you who are deep into the cult that everything is holy about REAPER...
As I've said, I've used all the major DAWs and they've all had bugs. It's ridiculous to single out Reaper in that regard. And in all honesty, I have yet to encounter that many in Reaper.

As for being deep into a cult, I think your imagination is getting away from you. I'm no more a Reaper cultist than I was a Studio One cultist or a Logic cultist or a Cubase cultist. I go with what works for me, and I think that's generally what most people do.
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:49 PM   #28
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I use Studio One... Don't know about Cubase, DP, Tracktion and Reason but in Studio One I have zero issues with Tempo Maps... In REAPER: just to copy a region without the tempo map getting all out of whack.
The problem I had in Studio One was bouncing midi multi-out instruments, which was trial and error. Most of the time I'd simply get a blank wav file on all but the original Kontakt track. One of the many things I got tired of dealing with after many attempts to fix the problem.

So I switched to single Kontakt instances for each track. That solved it. But I figured why not simply do that in Reaper where the CPU hit will be much, much lower. Instead of running at 50+%, I'm now running at 15-20%.
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:56 PM   #29
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because Reaper doesn't support Expression Maps;
Sure it does. You want expression maps, just download and install this plugin from Blake Robinson. He's giving it away for free. It took me two minutes to install it and it works like a charm.

http://www.syntheticorchestra.com/articulatereaper/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHlBuyw3UKc
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:16 PM   #30
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Sure it does. You want expression maps, just download and install this plugin from Blake Robinson. He's giving it away for free. It took me two minutes to install it and it works like a charm.

http://www.syntheticorchestra.com/articulatereaper/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHlBuyw3UKc
Would it let me input custom-names for my articulations (Cubase lets me), rather than confining me to the names appearing in the drop-down menu in the video?

The website indicates it sends all output to MIDI channel 1, which would mean it doesn't work with EWQL products (Cubase Expression Maps work with EWQL products). It also won't work with the ARC in LASS.

And the video indicates it maps each articulation to 1 and only 1 keyswitch. Some of my VSL articulations require a sequence of several keyswitches and CC-messages. (Cubase Expression Maps can do that).

So these are real-world reasons why Reaper isn't going to be the cat's meow for everyone; and why some on VI-Control avoiding Reaper isn't really such a mystery.

This has been a good example of something mentioned above:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Randolph View Post
I can't tell you how many times I've been reading a thread (or asked a question myself) and saw someone suggest Reaper. I open Reaper and find out that it can't even do what was being asked.

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Old 05-08-2017, 05:45 PM   #31
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I sometimes think another reason is the price, many people hate to have to admit they spent hundreds of dollars on a software program that in many ways is not as good as one you can get for 60.00. It is human nature, "mine is better than yours" just because it's mine. Also if I spent all that money when I did not need to it makes me look kind of foolish. I'm past that, I'll admit I threw 200.00 away on a Vegas upgrade only to find out due to my making assumptions about the latest Vegas program based on past experiences and industry norms that the program would no longer work for me. I had to get over it and was happy to find Reaper which I had never heard of before. Not only is it inexpensive but works a lot like Vegas as well. I worry more about a small company like this staying in business long term however if it comes to it they will probably sell to someone who will at least integrate it into their product line. For a higher price of course. Anyway I'm good for now and that my friends is all I need..
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Old 05-08-2017, 07:32 PM   #32
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...(Cubase lets me)...

...Cubase Expression Maps work with EWQL products). It also won't work with the ARC in LASS.

...Cubase Expression Maps can do that).

...
and yet here you are.
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Old 05-08-2017, 07:41 PM   #33
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and yet here you are.
As if everyone on every forum shares my priorities when choosing DAWs? I'm flattered by the suggestion.
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Old 05-08-2017, 07:43 PM   #34
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Nobody likes an uppity little fanboy. Adults are trying to discuss very real shortcomings in Reaper here. If that makes you hyperventilate, you have grown pathologically attached to your DAW.

The fanboy imagines that Justin and Schwa would be devastated by the airing of true facts. But really, Justin and Schwa will be fine, and the fanboy is merely projecting his own personal insecurities.

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Old 05-08-2017, 10:22 PM   #35
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Would it let me input custom-names for my articulations (Cubase lets me), rather than confining me to the names appearing in the drop-down menu in the video?
But that isn't what you originally stated, is it? You said, "Reaper doesn't support expression maps." Yet it does. Which is a perfect example of what I was saying in my original post. That Reaper gets a bad rap. And usually by folks who make blanket and false statements about it.

You make an erroneous statement about Reaper, then when proven wrong, you say, "yeah, but what about this and this and this?" You're constantly moving the ball. But toward what end? To somehow prove that Cubase is better?

Whatever.

Every DAW has its pros and cons. No single DAW is perfect. Which is why you'll never find me over at the Cubase forums talking about my problems with that particular DAW, even though I worked with it and its big sister for several years.

As for Blake's plug-in, I haven't worked with it enough to know every pro and con. I just know it does what I need it to do and it has worked with every library I've thrown at it.
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Old 05-08-2017, 10:37 PM   #36
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Reaper is lightweight, reasonably priced. Has its quirks, but then again what doesn't? Don't complain, work around it.
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Old 05-08-2017, 10:39 PM   #37
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But that isn't what you originally stated, is it? You said, "Reaper doesn't support expression maps."
I capitalized it, as in Cubase "Expression Maps", which work with VSL, LASS, and EWQL.

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Yet it does. Which is a perfect example of what I was saying in my original post. That Reaper gets a bad rap. And usually by folks who make blanket and false statements about it.

You make an erroneous statement about Reaper, then when proven wrong, you say, "yeah, but what about this and this and this?"
You wasted my time with an "Expression Maps" script that doesn't work with VSL, LASS, or EWQL.

You're flabbergasted by a thread on VI-Control where people are rejecting Reaper for their choice of DAW. People on VI-Control use VSL, LASS, and EWQL. I'm telling you why those people aren't enamored of Reaper, but you can't cope with the truth.

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You're constantly moving the ball. But toward what end? To somehow prove that Cubase is better?

Whatever.
I personally prefer Reaper, but you asked a question about people in general, so I answered, you uppity, deranged, insecure little fanboy.

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As for Blake's plug-in, I haven't worked with it enough to know every pro and con. I just know it does what I need it to do and it has worked with every library I've thrown at it.
The VI-Control thread isn't about you and the libraries you've happened to use. It's about lots of different people, many of them using VSL, LASS, and EWQL.

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you'll never find me over at the Cubase forums talking about my problems with that particular DAW
And you went out of your way to start this thread, all the while hoping the only response you'd get was "If they don't choose Reaper, they must be completely stupid." Wanker.

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Old 05-08-2017, 10:47 PM   #38
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Reaper is lightweight, reasonably priced. Has its quirks, but then again what doesn't? Don't complain, work around it.
Some people are working around it by not buying Reaper and buying different DAWs instead. The OP asked why they're doing that, and now you arrive to tell people not to answer OP's question. There are going to be a lot of things said on the internet that upset you---especially when you literally go out of your way to invite people to say them.

Fanboys who want to stay in their comfort zone, next time you want to ask "What's wrong with Reaper" and get zero responses, try asking it to yourself in a mirror; that echo-chamber might be small enough to satisfy you.
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:22 PM   #39
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if it comes to it they will probably sell to someone who will at least integrate it into their product line.
plz don't call the devil
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:49 PM   #40
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however if it comes to it they will probably sell to someone who will at least integrate it into their product line.
I wish they would sort of do that - (not really) - but I think the strength lies in the coding base and coding skills, not the higher level design. I wish the reaper guys would make a true and fully open rapid prototyping environment that other people with a stronger interest and greater skills in design would use to assemble other products with much better UX and visual design.
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