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09-23-2019, 03:21 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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Nord Lead sysex dump issue
This is a strange issue.
Reaper doesn't receive the sysex messages from my nord lead 2 but with the same settings receives the JP8000 sysex dumped messages !
nord lead preset dump with sysexlibrarian and Ableton live is OK so this is not an hardware issue.
Reaper receive the note and CC data from the nord lead but the midi indicator is not blinking when I dump a preset.
What is happening, is there a setting I must change in Reaper ?
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09-24-2019, 02:12 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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I tried to find a solution and it seems to be a 10 years old issue with Reaper.
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=71499
I face the same issue, sysex dump works with other DAW or sysexlibrarian but not in reaper.
Is there a fix planned ?
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09-25-2019, 04:49 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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still searching for a solution.
I can dump a nord lead preset in sysexlibrarian and copy/paste in Reaper in a midi clip.
The sysex data is successfully sent to the nord lead when I play the midi clip.
Why does reaper not received the sysex data (midi indicator on the armed input track does not blink) from the nordlead but is able to send them ?
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09-25-2019, 11:26 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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I tried with the same settings in Logic X and sysex dump works.
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10-25-2019, 04:47 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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bump...
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10-25-2019, 05:52 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,688
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What do you suppose Reaper should do with the SysEx messages it received via the Midi Device ?
-Michael
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10-25-2019, 10:03 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
What do you suppose Reaper should do with the SysEx messages it received via the Midi Device ?
-Michael
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The issue is that Reaper does not receive the sysex messages from the nord lead.
I tried with Logic, Ableton live, and sysex lybrarian : the sysex of the Nord lead are successfully received.
Even stranger, if I dump a sysex from a JP8000 keyboard to reaper, the sysex is correclty received.
When I send the dump message from the nord, the midi indicator on the Reaper TCP is not blinking (where the reainsert linked to the nord plugin is), so no messages are received.
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10-25-2019, 10:36 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dupont
Reaper does not receive ...
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Sorry, but you can't know what Reaper receives. You only can assess what Reaper shows you in some way.
-Michael
Last edited by mschnell; 10-26-2019 at 01:28 AM.
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10-28-2019, 01:11 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
Sorry, but you can't know what Reaper receives. You only can assess what Reaper shows you in some way.
-Michael
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What would Reaper receive sysex messages and not show them ?
It's not a secret !
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10-28-2019, 04:52 AM
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#10
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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What OS version is this on? Is it connected via the Nord's built-in USB, or a separate MIDI adapter?
Can you describe the process of dumping the SysEx dump on the Nord? I have a Stage II I can test with but I want to make sure the other details and process are as close as possible.
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10-28-2019, 06:21 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Nord Lead 2 didn't have direct USB connection (it's been manufactured from 1997-2003, hardware synths didn't commonly have USB connectors back then), so it's plain old sysex dump through DIN MIDI.
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10-28-2019, 07:13 AM
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#12
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Nord Lead 2 didn't have direct USB connection (it's been manufactured from 1997-2003, hardware synths didn't commonly have USB connectors back then), so it's plain old sysex dump through DIN MIDI.
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Guess I should've googled it
OK so what MIDI device is being used? Have you tried multiple interfaces?
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10-29-2019, 04:18 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
Guess I should've googled it
OK so what MIDI device is being used? Have you tried multiple interfaces?
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Hi Justin,
I dump from the nord lead in old fashion :
Midi out of the Nord wired to midi in interface which is connected to imac via USB
I hit the dump button on the Nord and arm the Reaper midi track but nothing is recorded.
I tried with 2 midi interfaces : 2I4 Focusrite and ESI Neon.
Same procedure is fine within Logic 10.3.3 so this is not an hardware configuration issue. Logic record the dump sysex from the nord lead.
Note I have no issues with dumped sysex in reaper with JP8000 synth, same procedure.
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10-29-2019, 04:33 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Please attach the sysex dump you get into Logic as MIDI file.
Also, try loading ReaControlMIDI on the track where you're receiving MIDI from your NL2, then enable the log. Is it showing any incoming info as the dump progresses?
Also, in Preferences->Audio->MIDI Devices, do you have "Enable input for control messages" enabled for NL2? If yes, try disabling it. You should only have "Enable input from this device" enabled.
I have a bunch of synths older than NL2 and they all dump to Reaper perfectly, so there's gotta be something not set properly somewhere, somehow.
Last edited by EvilDragon; 10-29-2019 at 04:39 AM.
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10-29-2019, 04:47 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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On the gif attached,
I inserted a reacontrol midi before reainsert
I play some notes, pitch bend and hit dump on the nord lead.
Only notes and pitch bend messages are showned in the log, no sysex (I thicked the sysex box)
At the end of the GIF, the dumped sysex are succesfully recorded in sysexlybrarian with same midi interface (ESI Neon).
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12n...r69AewNN0H9uXS
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10-29-2019, 04:55 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Please attach the sysex dump you get into Logic as MIDI file.
Also, try loading ReaControlMIDI on the track where you're receiving MIDI from your NL2, then enable the log. Is it showing any incoming info as the dump progresses?
Also, in Preferences->Audio->MIDI Devices, do you have "Enable input for control messages" enabled for NL2? If yes, try disabling it. You should only have "Enable input from this device" enabled.
I have a bunch of synths older than NL2 and they all dump to Reaper perfectly, so there's gotta be something not set properly somewhere, somehow.
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I tried to enable and disable input for control message, it only affects notes and CC messages but can't see any sysex when I hit dump on the nord ?
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10-29-2019, 05:26 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Sysex dump for devs:
Code:
F0 33 0F 04 00 00 0F 04 03 04 00 00 05 02 0D 00
01 02 0F 05 0D 02 00 00 02 05 0B 00 00 02 00 00
0A 06 00 07 0C 01 00 00 0B 02 00 00 05 05 0F 02
06 04 00 00 0E 02 05 02 00 00 00 00 07 06 0F 00
00 00 0B 02 00 00 0D 04 00 00 03 0D 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 05 03 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 04 00 01 00
01 00 01 00 00 00 01 00 03 00 F7
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10-29-2019, 05:28 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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10-29-2019, 05:33 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Sysex dump for devs:
Code:
F0 33 0F 04 00 00 0F 04 03 04 00 00 05 02 0D 00
01 02 0F 05 0D 02 00 00 02 05 0B 00 00 02 00 00
0A 06 00 07 0C 01 00 00 0B 02 00 00 05 05 0F 02
06 04 00 00 0E 02 05 02 00 00 00 00 07 06 0F 00
00 00 0B 02 00 00 0D 04 00 00 03 0D 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 05 03 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 04 00 01 00
01 00 01 00 00 00 01 00 03 00 F7
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You was faster than me !
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10-29-2019, 05:36 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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Note that I'm on OSX El Capitan.
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10-29-2019, 06:10 AM
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#21
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Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,750
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There's nothing unusual about that message. If Core MIDI passed that message to REAPER as-is, REAPER would accept it, so there must be something unusual about how it's transmitted, something that has been stripped out or corrected by the time Sysex Librarian displays it. Is it a single sysex message, or perhaps does one dump contain multiple F0..F7 blocks? Or perhaps the transmitted data size doesn't match the block size, and the other software is correcting it? There are a lot of possibilities but we really need to be able to replicate it locally.
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10-29-2019, 06:14 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
There's nothing unusual about that message. If Core MIDI passed that message to REAPER as-is, REAPER would accept it, so there must be something unusual about how it's transmitted, something that has been stripped out or corrected by the time Sysex Librarian displays it. Is it a single sysex message, or perhaps does one dump contain multiple F0..F7 blocks? Or perhaps the transmitted data size doesn't match the block size, and the other software is correcting it? There are a lot of possibilities but we really need to be able to replicate it locally.
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Do you need I do more tests ?
Strange issue but I think Reaper related as it is fine with the same configuration with logic X, Ableton live and Sysexlybrarian.
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10-29-2019, 06:26 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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When you do the dump, do you have multiple programs fighting for the MIDI port over which NL2 is connected? Not sure if that's a problem or not with CoreMIDI.
I assume you don't have another computer you could test this on? That might be helpful, especially if it's Windows too (then MIDI-OX would be golden).
However, it does seem that this is not a complete patch dump, it's supposed to have 247 bytes for a single patch.
(Also, is this NL2 or NL2x?)
Last edited by EvilDragon; 10-29-2019 at 06:33 AM.
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10-29-2019, 06:33 AM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
When you do the dump, do you have multiple programs fighting for the MIDI port over which NL2 is connected? Not sure if that's a problem or not with CoreMIDI.
I assume you don't have another computer you could test this on? That might be helpful, especially if it's Windows too (then MIDI-OX would be golden).
However, it does seem that this is not a complete patch dump, it's supposed to have 247 bytes for a single patch.
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Only the nord is connected to this midi interface, other synth is connected to focusrite midi interface.
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10-29-2019, 06:36 AM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
Hmm you mention ReaInsert, can you describe how everything is wired up?
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Nord midi out to ESI midi in
ESI midi out to nord midi in
ESI to imac via USB
Nord audio output to focusrite line in
focusrite audio out to monitors
focusrite to imac via USB
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10-29-2019, 06:38 AM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dupont
Only the nord is connected to this midi interface, other synth is connected to focusrite midi interface.
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I'm talking about programs. In that video you had the sysex librarian opened AND Reaper opened and both hooked to NL2x at the same time.
Also, what happens if you don't use ReaInsert? Just a single track with MIDI input coming from the Nord and that's it?
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10-29-2019, 07:18 AM
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#27
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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If you remove the ReaInsert, quit all other MIDI-accessing applications, and change the input to be the exact input used (Rather than All MIDI Inputs), does it receive SysEx then?
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10-29-2019, 10:25 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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Back home for some tests
all MIDI-accessing applications closed, no reainsert used
5 trials performed with nord lead plugged in midi interface Neon, for each test no sysex received only notes and CC if input track channel is set to all or 1
slot 1 midi 1
Global channel 5
input track channel 1 Neon
slot 1 midi 1
Global channel 5
input track channel 5 Neon
slot 1 midi 1
Global channel 16
input track channel 1 Neon
slot 1 midi 1
Global channel 16
input track channel 16 Neon
slot 1 midi 1
Global channel 16
all midi inputs all channels Neon
3 tests with NL plugged in scalett midi interface
for each test no sysex received only notes and CC if input track channel is set to all or 1
slot 1 midi 1
Global channel 16
input track channel 1 scarlett
slot 1 midi 1
Global channel 16
input track channel 16 scarlett
slot 1 midi 1
Global channel 16
input track channel all scarlett
Not that when I press dump on the NL, midi incomming led blinks on scarlett interface so sysex messages are transmitted from the NL.
No way to received sysex in Reaper
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10-29-2019, 10:45 AM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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same trial with JP800 plugged in scarlett midi interface, sysex can be seen in the midicontrol log
Track input set to scarlett all channels
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xP...trjiug2BDHGZqU
Conclusion : Reaper doesn't like Nord lead sysex.
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10-29-2019, 10:49 AM
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#30
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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Just tested a Nord Stage 2 w/ REAPER on macOS 10.13, it (as expected) worked fine, here was a dump of a synth patch:
Code:
Sysex (81 bytes)
F0 33 7F 10 08 03 02 00 00 11 06 4D 4D 20 33 20
54 75 6E 65 20 4C 65 61 64 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 2B 12 30 40 02
1F 47 20 00 05 30 60 14 00 18 00 00 00 00 07 00
16 00 18 2F 7E 32 44 40 00 00 00 00 30 41 00 4C
F7
Anybody have a Lead 2 we can test with in NYC?
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10-29-2019, 11:01 AM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Out of 8.6 million people somebody ought to have one. Maybe some second hand synth reseller shops would be willing to borrow one if they have it?
Last edited by EvilDragon; 10-29-2019 at 11:13 AM.
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10-29-2019, 11:15 AM
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#32
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dupont
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If you get another device (or computer) to transmit that same sysex message, does REAPER receive it properly then?
(side note: I tried loading the sysex dump above on my Stage 2, unsurprisingly it gave me a CRC error, I guess the Lead 2 synth format isn't supported on the Stage 2, boo! makes sense though haha)
Last edited by Justin; 10-29-2019 at 11:23 AM.
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10-29-2019, 12:00 PM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Of course it wouldn't work because the device ID byte is different (it's 04 for Lead and 0B for Stage 2) But moreover the structure of actual programs is completely different between them.
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10-29-2019, 01:09 PM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
If you get another device (or computer) to transmit that same sysex message, does REAPER receive it properly then?
(side note: I tried loading the sysex dump above on my Stage 2, unsurprisingly it gave me a CRC error, I guess the Lead 2 synth format isn't supported on the Stage 2, boo! makes sense though haha)
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I could try to dump the sysex to my Akai MPC and send back the sysex to Reaper from the MPC in play mode ?
Note, If I insert the sysex message in a Reaper midi item and hit play, the Nord lead received the sysex and program is successfully changed.
Sysex dump only work in one way.
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10-29-2019, 02:06 PM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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i'll send a mail to Clavia support tomorrow perhaps they can help ?
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10-29-2019, 04:28 PM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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With a discontinued model? Unsure if they could help. You can't try this on a different computer?
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10-30-2019, 01:39 AM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
With a discontinued model? Unsure if they could help. You can't try this on a different computer?
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Breaking news !
I tried this morning with my PC laptop (W10) :
Installed Reaper 5.984 and Focusrite drivers
result : Nord Lead dumped sysex successfully received by Reaper !
Conclusion : There is an issue with OSX Version of Reaper.
Note : I tried with 5.984+dev1027 on OSX.
ED, you was right.
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10-30-2019, 06:19 AM
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#38
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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Did you try playing the sysex from your MPC to REAPER to see if it comes through? Or from your Win10 laptop REAPER via MIDI to macOS REAPER?
Another question: immediately (well, a few seconds anyway) _after_ dumping the sysex that REAPER ignores (apparently), if you hit notes on the keyboard, do those come through?
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10-30-2019, 07:41 AM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
Did you try playing the sysex from your MPC to REAPER to see if it comes through? Or from your Win10 laptop REAPER via MIDI to macOS REAPER?
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I tried to send the sysex from the MPC : no Sysex in Reaper reamidicontrol log
Note : If I send the sysex from the MPC, Nord lead recognised the sysex.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
Another question: immediately (well, a few seconds anyway) _after_ dumping the sysex that REAPER ignores (apparently), if you hit notes on the keyboard, do those come through?
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Immediatly sfter dumping the sysex, if I hit notes on the keyboard I can see them in reamidicontrol log
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10-30-2019, 09:13 AM
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#40
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dupont
I tried to send the sysex from the MPC : no Sysex in Reaper reamidicontrol log
Note : If I send the sysex from the MPC, Nord lead recognised the sysex.
Immediatly sfter dumping the sysex, if I hit notes on the keyboard I can see them in reamidicontrol log
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How about if you create a project, put two tracks in it, have one have ReaControlMIDI with this SysEx data and a hardware output to "IAC Driver", and the other record armed and monitoring on the "IAC Driver" input, with ReaControlMIDI monitoring... If you send the sysex there, does it come through?
If so -- can you try the same thing using two MIDI devices for the loopback rather than the IAC Driver?
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