Saving Routing With Track Templates

[Tim Rideout]

Hi all,

I am using a modular approach to Track Templates and am having trouble saving my routing whilst saving track templates.

I have the following SNAPSHOTS of different parts of my MASTER TEMPLATE, for example:

1. Outputs & Bussing
2. Symphobia Brass
3. Cinebrass
4. Adagio Strings
5. Adagietto Strings

I have been saving these different track snapshots as Track Templates.

So, let's say I want to start a new orchestral project using Cinebrass and Adagietto. I would, in this order:

1 - create a New Project
2 - Add Track template OUTPUTS & BUSSING
3 - Add Track Template CINEBRASS
4 - Add Track Template ADAGIETTO

My outputs and routing are all contained in the very first tracks of my Master Template - they never move. So, all my snapshots connect fine to them in this template. However, when I save a template that has connections to (SENDS) the OUTPUTS part of my template, the routing does not reconnect/reappear. ie, there are no SEND being saved with my track templates.

Am I doing something wrong? Shouldn't Reaper be doing this? Why wouldn't it reconnect the SENDS, given that I'm inserting the receiving tracks in my new project BEFORE inserting the tracks with Sends.

Any help appreciated... thanks!
T

[Multibomber]

What i do is I make my template i.e. setup all my tracks,name them, sends and returns hooked up, beginning effects, volumes, whatever, and then I save it as an entire project. I call it something like "My Rock Template Project." Then if I'm starting a new song, I open up My Rock Template Project and I start doing whatever, but then when I save it after doing any amount of work, I save is under a new name "Most Badass Song In Ever!" Make sure that you check the boxes "Create subfolder for project" and "Move all media into subfolder." This way, I dont have to spend 2 hours starting from scratch every time, but all my standard stuff, that we would call a template, is already done.

So the very first time:

1. Open new Project
2. Set up tracks, name tracks,do sends/returns, FX, volume, etc.
3. Save project under generic name
4. Work on song
5. First time saving song, save under different name, creating subfolder for new song project and moving all media o subfolder.


This way, your template is preserved!

[Hoodee]

Track templates and snapshots are not really the same thing.

A track template will not connect to any pre-existing channel/track. Snaphots will create those connections if they are not availlible in the project.

[Tim Rideout]

Thanks for the thoughts guys -

Using the "entire project" as a template is a great feature called "Project Templates" - you can actually save them in a directory and have them at your fingertips. However, I'm making new project from "pieces" or sections of my Master template (for example, adding the brass tracks and synth tracks to create a new template).

This is where the SNAPSHOTS feature comes in - it is simply a way of hiding the visibility of tracks so I can *just see the Brass tracks (save as Track Template) and then *just the synth tracks (save as Track Template).

My problem is that when I do this, the SENDS of my track templates don't connect. They are not saved. There is no SEND sent from these tracks to my ROUTING section (my first 50 tracks of any template).

I know that when you save a Project Template your routing is saved - I'm trying to come up with a way to do this with Track Templates. Is there something I missed? A setting in there somewhere maybe...

[Tim Rideout]

If you look at this excerpt from the book REAPER POWER, top of page 35, it says Reaper should save the Routing information with the track templates:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=5Ld...outing&f=false

But, oh crap... The official Reaper Manual says the same thing - with a huge caveat on page 61:
http://dl.reaper.fm/userguide/ReaperUserGuide503.pdf

"Note: Track properties and settings are saved into the template, including track name, inputs and outputs, any
FX plug-ins (with any parameter settings, parameter modulation, and track controls), sends and receives.
However, if a track included in a track template includes any sends to or receives from any track or tracks not
included in the template, then these sends and receives will not be saved into the track template."



Arg. The problem with this is that I want to take a NEW project, and add all these sections to it - without duplicating my bussing/output section all the time - this article basically says that, if I don't include my routing section in each Track Template, my SEND will not route to my RECEIVES.



Anyone have any genius work-arounds?

[TheWhistler]

Originally Posted by Tim Rideout

If you look at this excerpt from the book REAPER POWER, top of page 35, it says Reaper should save the Routing information with the track templates:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=5Ld...outing&f=false

But, oh crap... The official Reaper Manual says the same thing - with a huge caveat on page 61:
http://dl.reaper.fm/userguide/ReaperUserGuide503.pdf

"Note: Track properties and settings are saved into the template, including track name, inputs and outputs, any
FX plug-ins (with any parameter settings, parameter modulation, and track controls), sends and receives.
However, if a track included in a track template includes any sends to or receives from any track or tracks not
included in the template, then these sends and receives will not be saved into the track template."



Arg. The problem with this is that I want to take a NEW project, and add all these sections to it - without duplicating my bussing/output section all the time - this article basically says that, if I don't include my routing section in each Track Template, my SEND will not route to my RECEIVES.



Anyone have any genius work-arounds?

It seems that I don´t understand what you really want.
I have a track-template for my Magix Independence.
This Template has 16 midi-inputs & 16 audio-outputs.
I don´t want to see them all when inserting the template,
hence I firstly save the template with only the first (midi+audio) channels hidden.
I can make all of these channels visible if wanted/needed the are there with all necessery sends/receives.

Is that what you want?

Edit: Think I got now. You want to combine templates with each other, do you?

[Hoodee]

Snapshots and templates aren't the same thing.

Which one do you use ?

I'd suggest saving your instruments as track templates but exporting the routing snapshot.

[Tim Rideout]

Thanks for the input - sorry if I'm not clear guys - it's a complex setup - but once you get your head around it, it's quite cool:

I have a MASTER TEMPLATE with the following tracks:

1-100 Routing and bussing for STEMs
101-200 Symphobia 1 Library
201-300 Kontakt User Library
301-400 Lumina Library

All libraries are routed into sections via my bussing section (violins into STRINGS BUSS, trumpets into BRASS bus and so on)

In my Master Template, I have defined the Following snapshots:

1 - all tracks
2 - Routing and Bussing section
3 - Symphobia Library Faves
4 - Symphobia Library LITE
5 - Kontakt Library Faves
6 - Kontakt Library LITE
7 - Kontakt Library PERCUSSION ONLY
8 - Lumina Library Faves
9 - Lumina Library LITE
10 - custom Omnisphere patches

I use this Master Template and its snapshots to create the corresponding Track Templates, same as the snapshots above. I save these Track Templates and of course have instant access to them by using INSERT TRACKS FROM TRACK TEMPLATE

SO - I have a new project. It looks like a percussion-heavy, semi-orchestral piece with some synths. I want to create a NEW project file by combining different Track Templates I have created. Here's what I would choose in this case:

Routing and Bussing section
Symphobia Library LITE
Kontakt Library PERCUSSION ONLY
Custom Omnisphere patches

So, I would add each of these Track Templates that I have saved from my Master Template, to my new project. This lets me design a new "project starting point" from scratch very easily, using all my available libraries. It saves me from re-bussing midi tracks every time, etc.



The problem (or pain in the arse) i have encountered is that my SENDS from each of my track templates are not saved, So, my Vienna instance from my Symphobia Track Template is not properly routed to track 49 in my Routing and Bussing section (even if I add that section first) when I add it to my new project starting point.

I hope this makes my setup clearer...
Any thoughts or tricks would be appreciated - but I may just be stuck with manually routing my Vienna Ensemble instances, at least where the audio Sends are concerned...

[TheWhistler]

Originally Posted by Tim Rideout

Thanks for the input - sorry if I'm not clear guys - it's a complex setup - but once you get your head around it, it's quite cool:

I have a MASTER TEMPLATE with the following tracks:

1-100 Routing and bussing for STEMs
101-200 Symphobia 1 Library
201-300 Kontakt User Library
301-400 Lumina Library

All libraries are routed into sections via my bussing section (violins into STRINGS BUSS, trumpets into BRASS bus and so on)

In my Master Template, I have defined the Following snapshots:

1 - all tracks
2 - Routing and Bussing section
3 - Symphobia Library Faves
4 - Symphobia Library LITE
5 - Kontakt Library Faves
6 - Kontakt Library LITE
7 - Kontakt Library PERCUSSION ONLY
8 - Lumina Library Faves
9 - Lumina Library LITE
10 - custom Omnisphere patches

I use this Master Template and its snapshots to create the corresponding Track Templates, same as the snapshots above. I save these Track Templates and of course have instant access to them by using INSERT TRACKS FROM TRACK TEMPLATE

SO - I have a new project. It looks like a percussion-heavy, semi-orchestral piece with some synths. I want to create a NEW project file by combining different Track Templates I have created. Here's what I would choose in this case:

Routing and Bussing section
Symphobia Library LITE
Kontakt Library PERCUSSION ONLY
Custom Omnisphere patches

So, I would add each of these Track Templates that I have saved from my Master Template, to my new project. This lets me design a new "project starting point" from scratch very easily, using all my available libraries. It saves me from re-bussing midi tracks every time, etc.



The problem (or pain in the arse) i have encountered is that my SENDS from each of my track templates are not saved, So, my Vienna instance from my Symphobia Track Template is not properly routed to track 49 in my Routing and Bussing section (even if I add that section first) when I add it to my new project starting point.

I hope this makes my setup clearer...
Any thoughts or tricks would be appreciated - but I may just be stuck with manually routing my Vienna Ensemble instances, at least where the audio Sends are concerned...

Ok, that is indeed very complex and goes far beyond what I ever have done in REAPER but....
Would it be possible to load a Master-Project with all of these

1 - all tracks
2 - Routing and Bussing section
3 - Symphobia Library Faves
4 - Symphobia Library LITE
5 - Kontakt Library Faves
6 - Kontakt Library LITE
7 - Kontakt Library PERCUSSION ONLY
8 - Lumina Library Faves
9 - Lumina Library LITE
10 - custom Omnisphere patches

Then deactivate the VSTis that are not needed at the time and hide the tracks that hold them via track view.
The advantage to have it all in one master-project and then just hide unnecessery things is that sends are there.
Deactivated VSTis need nearly no RAM and no CPU they don´t bother you when they are hidden, but you can see them as soon as you want (the tracks).
This works via: Track: Set all FX offline for selected tracks.
You then only have to activate the VSTis on these tracks.
Setting FX offline is a toggle, so press it again.

This is just a guess, don´t know if it really helps.
But I am curious how it develops.

[Tim Rideout]

Hi Whistler,

This could be a work-around (I already have all my FX set to Offline, since tehre are so many of them...) - but it becomes an exercise in Track Muting. I'm closing in on 1000 tracks, and it gets difficult to navigate without Snapshots.

However, if there was a way I could COMBINE snapshots in the Master Project, that would work - then I could bypass the maing of my Track Templates - ie, I could just use my Master Template as a starting point, combine my libraries, delete unused tracks and save as my ProjectStartingPoint.

Do you know if there is a way to combine snapshots?

[TheWhistler]

Originally Posted by Tim Rideout

Hi Whistler,

This could be a work-around (I already have all my FX set to Offline, since tehre are so many of them...) - but it becomes an exercise in Track Muting. I'm closing in on 1000 tracks, and it gets difficult to navigate without Snapshots.

However, if there was a way I could COMBINE snapshots in the Master Project, that would work - then I could bypass the maing of my Track Templates - ie, I could just use my Master Template as a starting point, combine my libraries, delete unused tracks and save as my ProjectStartingPoint.

Do you know if there is a way to combine snapshots?

I am sorry to say that my projects are so simple (30+ rock´n´roll) tracks, that I don´t work with snapshots.
But I like track views. I have my VSTis on Tracks that I hide while tracking or mixing.
I just make them visible when I have to do something within them.
So I thought that could be solution for you, but....1000 tracks (would make me afraid).

[Hoodee]

Do you have the SWS extensions?

[Tim Rideout]

The SWS extensions provide the Snapshot functionality. So... yes.

[Hoodee]

So you're doing something wrong while creating those snapshots. You should be able to choose where the tracks from the snapshot you're loading will be sent. Unavaillible tracks would also be created. make sure you have the full track mix checked in the snapshots window. also, try exporting them, I do that when mixing and it always work.

[Hoodee]

You know what, forget the track templates completely. This is why it doesn't work. or save the master section as track template but your instruments as snapshots. should work that way.

[Marquez]

Hi Tim,

I think my setup and approach and what I´m trying to do is very similar to yours. There seems to be another thing with snapshots (@community: Correct me if I´m wrong): It seems that custom track heights (I use a track hierarchy, busses are a bit lower than stems, regular tracks are a bit lower than busses etc) are ignored. This is not a problem with track templates.

Using the routing matrix, any track template, say "All Legato Cellos" are connected to the Cellos Sub Stem (which is already routed to the main STRINGS stem) in no time.

Anyway, if I´m mistaken, and the snapshots should have great advantages over track templates, I´d be happy to learn.

[Tim Rideout]

Hoodee,

From your comment, you really don't quite understand my workflow. I can't explain it any better to you - but what you're saying will not work given my needs.

Originally Posted by Hoodee

You know what, forget the track templates completely. This is why it doesn't work. or save the master section as track template but your instruments as snapshots. should work that way.

[Tim Rideout]

Thanks for your take, Marquez. Snapshots and Templates are two completely different approaches, and I am trying to use them both in my setup. For those following along, once again, here is what i do:

- use a large Master Template (1000+ tracks) that houses all my libraries and bussing
- use Snapshots (visibility) to split the template up into its libraries
- export these snapshotted tracks as templates
- combine these templates to re-create any library combo I want

Again, the PROBLEM is that the SEND routing doesn't get saved with the template.
I don't WANT to simply use snapshots (as some have suggested), because the size of the template is too cumbersome for everyday use.

My only current work-around is to simply re-route my STEM and audio sends after re-creating my smaller templates.

T

Originally Posted by Marquez

Hi Tim,

I think my setup and approach and what I´m trying to do is very similar to yours. There seems to be another thing with snapshots (@community: Correct me if I´m wrong): It seems that custom track heights (I use a track hierarchy, busses are a bit lower than stems, regular tracks are a bit lower than busses etc) are ignored. This is not a problem with track templates.

Using the routing matrix, any track template, say "All Legato Cellos" are connected to the Cellos Sub Stem (which is already routed to the main STRINGS stem) in no time.

Anyway, if I´m mistaken, and the snapshots should have great advantages over track templates, I´d be happy to learn.

[Hoodee]

Originally Posted by Tim Rideout

Hoodee,

From your comment, you really don't quite understand my workflow. I can't explain it any better to you - but what you're saying will not work given my needs.

Well, I give that to you, I'm actually a metalhead and use REAPER more like a console since I never use sample librairies and stuff. BUT - since your main concern is SENDS, I'd still just get a whole folder of exported snapshots for every instance of instruments you use and import those snapshots just as if they were track templates.

[Thalamus]

Did you ever find a solution to this.

I'm setting up for composing in Reaper and I would like to save track templates with their routing (kontakt) intact.

[foxAsteria]

I found a solution (save a project template and then rename it as a track template):

1. Save the tracks with routing, by themselves, as a project template (remove all other tracks first).
2. Open Reaper Resources folder (options menu), and open to ProjectTemplates folder.
3. Find the template file you just created and rename the file extension from [name].rpp to [name].RTrackTemplate.
3a. In Windows, to show file extensions, from any open folder in windows explorer > tools (menu) > folder options > view (tab) > uncheck option "hide extensions..." > click OK
4. Move the file from the ProjectTemplates folder to the TrackTemplates folder
5. The project template can now be loaded same as any other track template, except the routing is stored.

Since this solution is so easy, it seems like track templates could just as easily support storing routing natively.

[DANIELE]

So, any solution to this? I have the exact same problem except for the fact that I want to remove group of tracks from my main template and re-add them if I need them.


I have to leave the busses where they are, I cannot export them and re-add them every time I want to add a group, because I would add duplicates, anyway any attempt brings me to loose routing..

[ChristopherT]

The way I have been getting around this is to have a master template with everything that I need in it. (around 800 tracks)
Everything is routed

I start a project and import my master track template which has everything, then gradually remove the stuff I don't need.

All of the VI's in the saved track template are offline and muted so when I start project the ram and CPU is not all eaten up

I also have a bunch of smaller track templates saved so that I can import smaller sections into a project at a later stage, and usually stuff that does not need complex routing (like VI synths, electric bass, electric piano's)

My workflow is still evolving, but the above gets me going fast enough.

[foxAsteria]

Track templates do save routing now, provided you include the receiving tracks in the template.

[DANIELE]

Originally Posted by ChristopherT

The way I have been getting around this is to have a master template with everything that I need in it. (around 800 tracks)
Everything is routed

I start a project and import my master track template which has everything, then gradually remove the stuff I don't need.

All of the VI's in the saved track template are offline and muted so when I start project the ram and CPU is not all eaten up

I also have a bunch of smaller track templates saved so that I can import smaller sections into a project at a later stage, and usually stuff that does not need complex routing (like VI synths, electric bass, electric piano's)

My workflow is still evolving, but the above gets me going fast enough.

My template is already like yours. I have >800 tracks disabled (offline) and I bring online only what I need. The problem is that the template is very big (700 MB)and I'd like to load something smaller and lighter.


I could delete the tracks I don't use in every project but till the end of it I don't know what to delete and I keep saving a bigger project.


I'd like to do it the other way by adding what I need when I need it, but I fear it is not possible right now.

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

Track templates do save routing now, provided you include the receiving tracks in the template.

I'll do some other tests on it but as I said before I have few busses that receive from a big amount of tracks.
Let's say I want to remove only a part of these tracks, I should save them with the bus. Once I load them again I'll end up with a duplicated bus or maybe three of them and so on.


I'd like to leave the bus where it is and export only the tracks I need to export. Maybe some kind of information about the tracks to route them could be stored in the template file, I don't know...

[heda]

I think the solution is to create all tracks, with their names, colors, icons, routings, groups etc all with empty FX chains.. and then load FX Chains into them as needed.

here is a script I made to match selected tracks names to FX Chains automatically https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=136

[DANIELE]

Originally Posted by heda

I think the solution is to create all tracks, with their names, colors, icons, routings, groups etc all with empty FX chains.. and then load FX Chains into them as needed.

here is a script I made to match selected tracks names to FX Chains automatically https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=136

Oh great, this could be a very good workaround.


The only downside about this is that you have to save a lot of FX Chains, one per track.

EDIT

Could you maybe add a function to choose the folder where to store FX Chains? So one could separate FX chains in the FX Browser windows from the ones used for the script.

[heda]

Originally Posted by DANIELE

Could you maybe add a function to choose the folder where to store FX Chains? So one could separate FX chains in the FX Browser windows from the ones used for the script.

Yes you can organize your FX Chains in subfolders. The match function will search in all FXChains subfolders. .

[DANIELE]

Originally Posted by heda

Yes you can organize your FX Chains in subfolders. The match function will search in all FXChains subfolders. .

Ok, I will test it this evening and let you know.

[Kristaoss]

Have you ever found a solution Tim?

I am in a very similar situation as yours.
Actually, I don't use snapshots, I have a collection of Track Templates (around 50 track templates for a total of 600+ tracks) and a master template as my default project template.

I add track templates as I need them and indeed, have to route everything from track templates to master everytime. Not a pain but if it could be avoided...

I can't think of a solution.

[heda]

Originally Posted by Kristaoss

Have you ever found a solution Tim?

I am in a very similar situation as yours.
Actually, I don't use snapshots, I have a collection of Track Templates (around 50 track templates for a total of 600+ tracks) and a master template as my default project template.

I add track templates as I need them and indeed, have to route everything from track templates to master everytime. Not a pain but if it could be avoided...

I can't think of a solution.

I added some routing options for sends to track templates script, But I think the easiest would be to have all the routing of all your templates in the project ready, and just fill their FX chains as needed from FX Chains, instead of loading them as track templates.

[Tim Rideout]

Hi Kris,

I am not doing as much massive orchestral scoring these days - and have not really been investing the time into the whole MEGA-TEMPLATE thing

however, a couple of things have been said in this thread:

1) Reaper now saves Track Template routing *IF* the routing is done *within the tracks on the template - ie, you cant route to a track that's not there
2) someone proposed saving your Track Template as a PROJECT template - then renaming the file extension. Apparently this saves the routing!
3) and its been suggested to not put your vsts inline, and load them *after you load up your track template (doesnt work for my workflow)

What I am doing nowadays is making my routing a whole lot simpler and actually cutting Vienna out of the equation for simpler jobs. So, I run a KONTAKT instance as my master routing folder, and all midi tracks go inside it - even reverb send. I just load up this instance as a track template (ex: EPIC PERCUSSION FAVES) and just route the master folder to my PERCUSSION buss. Done

Originally Posted by Kristaoss

Have you ever found a solution Tim?

I am in a very similar situation as yours.
Actually, I don't use snapshots, I have a collection of Track Templates (around 50 track templates for a total of 600+ tracks) and a master template as my default project template.

I add track templates as I need them and indeed, have to route everything from track templates to master everytime. Not a pain but if it could be avoided...

I can't think of a solution.

[BrotherLove]

Use OTR for Reaper.

You're welcome.

[Philbo King]

I do the same thing. If you use folders to hold each section, you can collapse the section and remove that whole section in a couple seconds.

Originally Posted by ChristopherT

The way I have been getting around this is to have a master template with everything that I need in it. (around 800 tracks)
Everything is routed

I start a project and import my master track template which has everything, then gradually remove the stuff I don't need.

All of the VI's in the saved track template are offline and muted so when I start project the ram and CPU is not all eaten up

I also have a bunch of smaller track templates saved so that I can import smaller sections into a project at a later stage, and usually stuff that does not need complex routing (like VI synths, electric bass, electric piano's)

My workflow is still evolving, but the above gets me going fast enough.

[TonE]

Snapshots suggestion from top was not understood and applied correctly it seems. Anyway, those who are interested can test further. It seems sometimes solutions are given, but then those are somehow not used, but ignored. Did not test myself, just from reading here.

Learned lesson here, I guess. Do your routings from parent folder tracks, add your free / modular track templates as child tracks into those folders. No trouble with no routing happening, as you do not need those. You kind of separate the problem of routing from templates, so your templates do not need any routing, but are still routed correctly later, because you place them into the correct folder. This would be my summary of the above story. (if not understood wrongly)

[Sonicbyte]

Originally Posted by TonE

Snapshots suggestion from top was not understood and applied correctly it seems. Anyway, those who are interested can test further. It seems sometimes solutions are given, but then those are somehow not used, but ignored. Did not test myself, just from reading here.

Learned lesson here, I guess. Do your routings from parent folder tracks, add your free / modular track templates as child tracks into those folders. No trouble with no routing happening, as you do not need those. You kind of separate the problem of routing from templates, so your templates do not need any routing, but are still routed correctly later, because you place them into the correct folder. This would be my summary of the above story. (if not understood wrongly)

I will try this suggestion with my template and let you know if works...
Thanks

[serr]

Copy tracks to include the routing on both ends. ie. Also copy the bus track that the tracks you wanted route to.

Maybe you already had a VOCAL bus track and it simply routes to your MIX bus track. Paste only the imported vocal tracks... PITA having to add the routing for them! Paste the imported tracks that includes the bus track with them routed to it. Now just route the 'new' vocal bus track to the mix bus and delete the old one.

Just one example. The secret is to include both ends of routing you wish to preserve.

[IDDQDSound]

To make a long story short, Track Templates only save routing when both the sending and receiving tracks are present in the track template. For example, you can make a track template like this:
-2 tracks, A & B, both sending to Track C
-1 Track C receiving from Track A & B

If you save all 3 as a track template, the routing will be retained, but if you save tracks A & B as one track template, and track C as another track template, and then import both, their routing won't be recalled. There's no default way around this.

I have a similar issue as I also use Track templates, so I have for example, a Guitar Bus, a Drum Bus, Bass, Keys, Horns, etc.

So obviously I don't want a project template because probably not all these different busses are in every project.

At the same time, All my busses will eventually go to feed into a Parallel Compression Buss.

So what I do is, I have a project template containing my master track, my parallel buss, my stem print tracks, etc.

I open that, and based on the song I may then import my Drums bus, Bass bus, Guitar Bus, and vocals bus, but nothing else.

Then all I gotta is to select all buss tracks, hold shift and drag the routing to the parallel buss, and that's it.

[TonE]

If you have any example RPP, without any fx and items, only routing, we could visualize it here nicely.