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Old 09-12-2018, 07:24 PM   #1
Hypothesis
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Default Several features essential to audio for video post

Dear Reaper community,

Since I am new to Reaper and the forums, just a short introduction.

I run an audio post-production - tv/film music composition studio and am a film/tv composer / sound designer myself. All of the machines in our studio are mostly based on Nuendo 8 / Cubase 9.5 and so far we were not seriously considering anything else since it really works very nice. We have a Protools rig as well but we use it just when the client brings a project already done in Prootools, since we are not fans of it.

But recently I was introduced to Reaper by a fellow colleague and WOW - I have to say that I am quite impressed with what it has to offer and a number of concepts that are very unique about it. I was considering trying it out as our daily driver software - but when we started the process - we ran into several deal breakers for our type of workflow, and I think I speak for most of the studios who do a lot of VIDEO collaboration / sound design / music for video type of stuff, so I am going to concentrate on those issues.

1) OMF / AAF support.
This is just essential in the audio postproduction workflow. We work with numerous TV stations across the world and different editors working in different editing software. As limited and flawed as those file formats are (OMF / AAF) - they are still heavily in use and are an essential part of our workflow. I have found workarounds such as AATRANSLATOR or VORDIO, but those are additional programs that you have to buy for each machine and unnecessairly complicate the workflow not to mention that I still don't know how reliable they are...

2) FLAC / WavePack METADATA support.
Reaper just doesn't read METADATA from anything that isn't a WAVE file. We have tried everything but it just doesn't work. I've read several forum posts about this problem. It is a complete dealbreaker for us since our complete sound database is in FLAC format (it would be more than 10TB in WAV for each machine). This makes the MEDIA EXPLORER useless for us since it cannot read / search through the metadata in our SOUND FILES eventhough it can read the soundfiles themselves just fine. WavePack METADATA would also be great, but it does not work either.

3) VIDEO Thumbnails.
For anyone doing sound design or music for video work - video thumbnails are very importaint especially if you work on a very long video - such as feature film or TV show. Reaper does not have video frame thumbnails - it just shows the audio waveform, or an emtpy clip.


These 3 things have kept me from digging in deeper so far, since we cannot work daily in it. I will surely continue experimenting and trying it out occasionally since I think it is an incredible and very promising DAW, but until I find viable solution.

There are some other issues and missing workflow tools we ran into - but managed to solve most of them with extensions so far... (such as SWS/BR, etc...).

If anyone of you guys knows something we don't - help and info is hightly appreciated.

Thanks a lot!
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Old 09-12-2018, 07:43 PM   #2
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#1 will probably never happen. OMF is handled differently by every DAW because they all have their own different features that may or may not be translatable to anything else. Cockos would effectively have to write their own AATranslator, and Cockos is only two people, so... yeah. I've heard great things about both AAT and Vordio though, and I believe both products' devs are fairly active here if you did have questions or problems.

#2 has been an ongoing complaint going back... well, I'm getting search results for 2009. It might be something that scripts can assist with though - I'm utterly unfamiliar with this stuff, but I know X-Raym has some for dealing with BWF.

#3... see #2. The video side of things could use a fair bit of love.

Making noise about them here is your best bet. Good luck.
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Old 09-13-2018, 11:28 AM   #3
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Thanks for the reply.

I really hope that at least the METADATA for non WAVE files issue gets resolved, since that one is really essential.

As for the OMF / AAF formats - I don't think that would be so hard to implement since it would be quite enough to import just clip positions / length (with handles) and maybe fades... that is the only thing most of us actually use when we get OMF / AAF from the video editors. OMF is relatively a simple format, much much simpler than many things that are being done in REAPER.
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Old 09-13-2018, 04:11 PM   #4
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I hear you on this. Native metadata support like a good mastering/post DAW would be a good thing for REAPER.

Aside form mastering work, I do some audio for video mixing/fixing/clean up for a very regular client and while I've moved nearly my entire mastering workflow to REAPER (plus WaveLab), I haven't found a good way to move this audio post for video work to REAPER so I still use Pro Tools for that.

I think it's mostly because of lack of great playlist options like Pro Tools has. I was ready to use Vordio or AATranslator for getting the OMF files nto REAPER but there were just too many other small hangups preventing me from moving this type of work over to REAPER at this time.

I'd say it's 30% me not taking the time to learn a new workflow, and 70% REAPER not being able to do certain things a certain way which is unfortunate because in other ways it runs circles around the big DAWs but in other ways it comes up short.

I appreciate the playlist scripts some people have tried but they are all too janky for me to want to deal with regularly.
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Old 09-16-2018, 03:22 AM   #5
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#1 , just an echo of Lokasenna. Two guys would have to blow several years to get where AATranslator already is. I use AATranslator every day. It has support reminiscent of Soundminer, adn the price is great.

#2 I concur. Reapers database feature is great, so I see no huge obstacles for Reaper to support scanning for this data when creating a database, showing directory contents and of course providing API functions to get this data for source files of items.

Xenakios was kind enough to create an action to rename an item according to BWAV descriptions, so to have this with Flac and Wavpack, two completely open formats would be a step in the right direction for all post and design users imho.

#3. I posted that request a while ago, being a duplicate of an even older request as well.
https://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=4295

This may be a priority thing. They might get to it when they dealing with more video stuff overall. Hold on to it and keep your eye out in the pre-release forum.
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Old 09-16-2018, 03:26 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRMJP View Post
Aside form mastering work, I do some audio for video mixing/fixing/clean up for a very regular client and while I've moved nearly my entire mastering workflow to REAPER (plus WaveLab), I haven't found a good way to move this audio post for video work to REAPER so I still use Pro Tools for that.

I think it's mostly because of lack of great playlist options like Pro Tools has. I was ready to use Vordio or AATranslator for getting the OMF files nto REAPER but there were just too many other small hangups preventing me from moving this type of work over to REAPER at this time.
What problems do you have ? I’ve edited and mixed close to 300 shows in Reaper by now.
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Old 09-19-2018, 02:06 AM   #7
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#1 , just an echo of Lokasenna. Two guys would have to blow several years to get where AATranslator already is. I use AATranslator every day. It has support reminiscent of Soundminer, adn the price is great.

#2 I concur. Reapers database feature is great, so I see no huge obstacles for Reaper to support scanning for this data when creating a database, showing directory contents and of course providing API functions to get this data for source files of items.

Xenakios was kind enough to create an action to rename an item according to BWAV descriptions, so to have this with Flac and Wavpack, two completely open formats would be a step in the right direction for all post and design users imho.


#1 Well I do not agree completely... It does not need to do everything that AATranslator does - just to read OMF or AAF. There has already been a plugin / script for REAPER a long time ago that did exactly that. It was written by a single user and it used to work in 32bit Reaper, until it went full 64bit - the dll stopped working. Reading OMF is not rocket science, I know a little bit of coding too, so I know that it would not take too much time, especially those two guys who are very skilled. As for the price of AATranslator - it is ok when you are a solo guy working, but when you run a studio with 8 machines it is x8 the cost, so not to be underestimated. And it is not only about the price, but the more complicated workflow. When you use that only occasionally it's not a problem. But when you have to convert XX files daily every time (working for TV stations), it's a pain in the back... And on the price issue - price of REAPER as a full fledged DAW with millions of options and functions is about the same as the price of AATranslator (just a session converter), which is a bit unbalanced, won't you agree?

#2 The fact that you do not use those features does not make them useless. Metadata is essential in professional sound design workflow. We have huge libraries with extensive metadata in them, it is impossible to convert it to filenames since they would be much more than 256 characters. Keeping those files in BWF format would take several hard drives per machine..... also not practical... Keeping them in lossless formats such as FLAC or WavPack, while retaining the METADATA reading option is essential and has already been requested, as I can see. Cubase and Nuendo read metadata from those files flawlessly, for example....

Cheers.

Last edited by Hypothesis; 09-19-2018 at 02:37 AM. Reason: Errors
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Old 09-19-2018, 02:34 AM   #8
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OMF/AAF won't happen natively, you can freely forget that. And yes, it's because AAT exists.
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Old 09-19-2018, 02:44 AM   #9
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OMF/AAF won't happen natively, you can freely forget that. And yes, it's because AAT exists.
If you are right, than it's really a pity since that kind of approach will stop many serious studios from considering Reaper.

Reaper is the first really exciting thing that I've seen in DAW's in a long time, and I think it could become the best multipurpose DAW for sure.

But as I can see - it is still mostly being used by individual users (mostly music production) and small project studios - not so much for high-end post-production work, and I think one of the main reasons is missing those specialty tools needed for that type of workflow....

I really hope that kind of stuff gets addressed some time in the future....
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Old 09-22-2018, 08:50 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypothesis View Post
As for the price of AATranslator - it is ok when you are a solo guy working, but when you run a studio with 8 machines it is x8 the cost, so not to be underestimated.
We aren't greedy, we actually have generous site licences - feel free to PM me to discuss should you be interested.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypothesis View Post
And on the price issue - price of REAPER as a full fledged DAW with millions of options and functions is about the same as the price of AATranslator (just a session converter), which is a bit unbalanced, won't you agree?
We started about nine years ago and if you purchased AATranslator back then you would still be getting free updates today.
If you purchased Reaper back then you would have paid far more for Reaper than you ever did for AATranslator over that nine years.
I think you really need to compare apples with apples ;-)
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Old 09-22-2018, 09:22 AM   #11
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There has already been a plugin / script for REAPER a long time ago that did exactly that. It was written by a single user and it used to work in 32bit Reaper, until it went full 64bit - the dll stopped working.
I was surprised to read that... all this OMF/AAF talk and it has been possible all this time to write a plugin for basic import/export support? I'm surprised the folks asking for it haven't pooled resources and offered a bounty for a coder to generate that. (Not that the bounty would match a coder's salary, just saying... sweeten the deal.)

I don't deal with OMF, but a friend recently came up against this as well. All he needs is clip position, not even fades.
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Old 09-23-2018, 01:35 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Hypothesis View Post
There has already been a plugin / script for REAPER a long time ago that did exactly that. It was written by a single user and it used to work in 32bit Reaper, until it went full 64bit - the dll stopped working.

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I was surprised to read that... all this OMF/AAF talk and it has been possible all this time to write a plugin for basic import/export support? I'm surprised the folks asking for it haven't pooled resources and offered a bounty for a coder to generate that. (Not that the bounty would match a coder's salary, just saying... sweeten the deal.)

I don't deal with OMF, but a friend recently came up against this as well. All he needs is clip position, not even fades.
Where can we find this script? I regularly need to import DP and PT sessions for overdubbing parts and also have no need for anything beyond clip position. I assume one could open this in 32bit Reaper still. Would be *extremely* convenient as a translation tool for this.

Searched to no avail.

Thanks : )
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Old 09-23-2018, 01:39 PM   #13
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Where can we find this script? I regularly need to import DP and PT sessions for overdubbing parts and also have no need for anything beyond clip position. I assume one could open this in 32bit Reaper still. Would be *extremely* convenient as a translation tool for this.

Searched to no avail.

Thanks : )
Hi Dubreeze,

Here is the link to this PLUGIN :
https://stash.reaper.fm/v/2426/reaper_omf.dll

I did not try it myself, but some people wrote that it used to work in 32-bit....

Try it and let us know... maybe it can be updated for 64-bit by the author or someone else....

Best regards
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Old 09-23-2018, 01:49 PM   #14
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We aren't greedy, we actually have generous site licences - feel free to PM me to discuss should you be interested.



We started about nine years ago and if you purchased AATranslator back then you would still be getting free updates today.
If you purchased Reaper back then you would have paid far more for Reaper than you ever did for AATranslator over that nine years.
I think you really need to compare apples with apples ;-)
Dear Runaway,

Thanks for the reply. Do not get me wrong, I really DO appreciate your work on AATranslator and I do think you guys should definitely get credit and fair pay for your work. I wasn't trying to degrade the importance of your software by comparing the price with Reaper, I was just trying the evaluate the feasibility in our particular case, when we have already invested heavily in Steinberg sofware (several copies of Cubase / Nuendo) and thinking of giving Reaper a try, since it honestly seems like a great software.

And as I said - it is not only about the price, it's also about the workflow, since every additional step, slows you down on daily basis when working on a lot of small projects at the same time (in out case TV promos, commecials, intros, TV series, etc...).

If AATranslator was supporting MIDI / VST translation from session type to another, than it would be a complete game changer I think, since it would allow to switch from one daw to another much more seamlessly, but I know that there would be a lot of potential issues and hard work to get that to work properly....

Anyway, thanks again I will definitely get AATranslator if we choose to give Reaper a serious try in our studio...

Best regards
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Old 09-23-2018, 01:51 PM   #15
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I was surprised to read that... all this OMF/AAF talk and it has been possible all this time to write a plugin for basic import/export support? I'm surprised the folks asking for it haven't pooled resources and offered a bounty for a coder to generate that. (Not that the bounty would match a coder's salary, just saying... sweeten the deal.)

I don't deal with OMF, but a friend recently came up against this as well. All he needs is clip position, not even fades.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypothesis View Post
Hi Dubreeze,

Here is the link to this PLUGIN :
https://stash.reaper.fm/v/2426/reaper_omf.dll

I did not try it myself, but some people wrote that it used to work in 32-bit....

Try it and let us know... maybe it can be updated for 64-bit by the author or someone else....

Best regards
Thanks for the quick response, Hypothesis. I'm only on Macs but if I have a chance to try Reaper 32 bit for Windows with Wine I'll report back.
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Old 09-23-2018, 02:58 PM   #16
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What problems do you have ? I’ve edited and mixed close to 300 shows in Reaper by now.
No problems. Part of it is finding time to learn my preferred workflow in REAPER and I can currently do these projects faster in Pro Tools.

One setback is lack of Pro Tools style playlists which after two years of using REAPER is one of the few things I think Pro Tools does better than REAPER.

One lesser setback is the lack of AudioSuite style processing which I can mostly get around by having RX as REAPER's primary audio editor but due to:

Lack of direct OMF import
Lack of good playlist workflows
Lack of AudioSuite style direct offline processing

I am not as excited to these types of projects in REAPER like I am with my normal mastering projects.
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Old 09-23-2018, 03:06 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Hypothesis View Post

If AATranslator was supporting MIDI / VST translation from session type to another, than it would be a complete game changer I think, since it would allow to switch from one daw to another much more seamlessly, but I know that there would be a lot of potential issues and hard work to get that to work properly....
Ahhh, my words exactly!!! Runaway already said, that he would look into it, when time permits. Updating OMF and AAF support still seems to occupy most of the time. It would indeed be a game changer. I'm also running Cubase and Nuendo and would love to take my projects over!
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Old 09-23-2018, 03:31 PM   #18
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No problems. Part of it is finding time to learn my preferred workflow in REAPER and I can currently do these projects faster in Pro Tools.

One setback is lack of Pro Tools style playlists which after two years of using REAPER is one of the few things I think Pro Tools does better than REAPER.

One lesser setback is the lack of AudioSuite style processing which I can mostly get around by having RX as REAPER's primary audio editor but due to:

Lack of direct OMF import
Lack of good playlist workflows
Lack of AudioSuite style direct offline processing
MRMJP, I'm on your page with these but have you gotten into Take FX as Audiosuite? If not, what's needed is to create an action for when you have an area highlighted which will split it into an item, open item's Take FX, select fx and then glue. For a complete choice of your presets you can create actions for variable settings on a plugin (for pop, worse pop, etc) by saving the setting as a chain (even if it's just one plugin) and putting the chain in a slot in the Resources list in the Extensions menu. Then it can be called up by the action as SWS/S&M: Resources - Paste (replace) FX chain to selected items slot X. It does the job very well, but for me the biggest issue is how Reaper doesn't let you simply drag over a part of a track's audio to have it selected for the FX. It has to have a new item created and in order to highlight and, boom, have it, you can't be highlighting on that audio, it needs to be in the area above or timeline, not as fast as highlighting for Audiosuite in PT. In fact, I find the best way to not lose my flow in Reaper is to just cursor down on either side of the area with the "S" action to split once and then again on the other. But then I can action up a chain of anything to put a new fixed file in place.

I personally have the action end in gluing (and unlooping the new item) but without that the item fx remains on it, shown on it's top left edge, so that can work also. I'm just better off personally committing the tiny fixes.
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Old 09-23-2018, 05:59 PM   #19
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Looks like the OMF import plugin author posted as recently as 2016, if anyone wanted to ping them and beg for a compatibility update or something:

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....00#post1684500

Edit: last comment on the stash pages says v5.35 32bit windows worked. That was only a bit over a year ago, so maybe it works still or wouldn't be so hard to update.
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Old 09-24-2018, 12:39 AM   #20
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Dear Runaway,

Thanks for the reply. Do not get me wrong, I really DO appreciate your work on AATranslator and I do think you guys should definitely get credit and fair pay for your work. I wasn't trying to degrade the importance of your software by comparing the price with Reaper, I was just trying the evaluate the feasibility in our particular case, when we have already invested heavily in Steinberg sofware (several copies of Cubase / Nuendo) and thinking of giving Reaper a try, since it honestly seems like a great software.

And as I said - it is not only about the price, it's also about the workflow, since every additional step, slows you down on daily basis when working on a lot of small projects at the same time (in out case TV promos, commecials, intros, TV series, etc...).

If AATranslator was supporting MIDI / VST translation from session type to another, than it would be a complete game changer I think, since it would allow to switch from one daw to another much more seamlessly, but I know that there would be a lot of potential issues and hard work to get that to work properly....

Anyway, thanks again I will definitely get AATranslator if we choose to give Reaper a serious try in our studio...

Best regards
No offence taken
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Old 09-24-2018, 12:49 AM   #21
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Ahhh, my words exactly!!! Runaway already said, that he would look into it, when time permits. Updating OMF and AAF support still seems to occupy most of the time. It would indeed be a game changer. I'm also running Cubase and Nuendo and would love to take my projects over!
With the next AAT release we are now quietly confident that we have most flavours (and sub flavours) of OMF and AAF covered (though you can bet that Media Composer will throw us another curve ball at some point) and we have reduced conversion times for OMF as well as PT so we are hoping to spend much less time on OMF and AAF moving forward. We do have a couple of side projects consuming some of our resources but we are hoping to see if we can get some preliminary midi and/or vst exploratory work undertaken.
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Old 09-24-2018, 03:49 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by MRMJP View Post
No problems. Part of it is finding time to learn my preferred workflow in REAPER and I can currently do these projects faster in Pro Tools.

One setback is lack of Pro Tools style playlists which after two years of using REAPER is one of the few things I think Pro Tools does better than REAPER.

One lesser setback is the lack of AudioSuite style processing which I can mostly get around by having RX as REAPER's primary audio editor but due to:

Lack of direct OMF import
Lack of good playlist workflows
Lack of AudioSuite style direct offline processing

I am not as excited to these types of projects in REAPER like I am with my normal mastering projects.
Ah, my use of Reaper is mostly editing and mixing dialogue right now, so I'm likely going through different workflows than you are. I use RX a lot too, but am quite happy with it. I had some half-hour home improvement shows with some not so squeaky clean ADR, which ran through RX's batch converter. It was dead easy to swap out files for the processed ones.

Other than that, I too miss the more refined aspects of Audio Suite processing.

That's a good feature request actually. An window that can do both plugin and offline processes in sequences across a bunch of selected items with options to produce processed files of the entire source of the items.

The offline processes like varitpitching could be really useful too. I'm sure a script is able to handle this, but a native solution could use all the clever stuff Reaper has to offer.

What do you think should be in an Audiosuite-type of feature in Reaper ?

Many will point out item fx. If this is important enough to you, I'd very much like to know what the advantages of the Audio Suite processing is in Protools that you'd like to see in Reaper.
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