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Old 01-02-2016, 09:22 AM   #1
cubic13
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Default What (I think...) we need for efficient theming...

Think it's time to clearly list what is missing in theming devlopment in general and related UI problems. I'm not the only one to see that a lot of former themers have more or less abandoned any involvment during the last few years. It means something : at a point we are more or less hitting the same limitations. So, this thread is to list what (I think) could be fixed and/or enhanced to revitalize what was considered as one of the most evident strength of reaper : its theming features. Who knows ? Maybe the devs will take a look at it...

Honestly, I think that there have been only two important and appreciated enhancements concerning theming since a long time (four years, actually, when Walter was implemented as a dedicated theming language) :
- the ability to have the TCP panel color exactly the same as the track color one,
- the enhancements done concerning the layouts subfolders organisation.
I will not put the Walter 'macro' related additions in it, simply because it's still not documented one year after having been implemented in the early Reaper 5 'Pre' stage. As I'm writing this, it still useless for us, themers.


So, here is my list of features and needed fixes that, IMO, should have been taken in consideration before any esoteric Walter 'macro' statements. It's self centered, I admit, but I think that solving these could help any actual or aspiring themer to take the jump and enrich the Reaper theme stash. From which, here what (I think, again...) are truely need :

1) A coherent documentation. Just an example : see this page. There is not a single word about how each image is linked to its related control. We have, for nearly all of them, just a ':' sign and nothing follows. The whole documentation is at a minimalistic state, this to be diplomatical. The result (and I don't think I need any poll to state it) is that a lot of us which would like to be able to theme, or at least, be able to edit already existing themes just give up. How many times have I seen posts in which the author clearly states that he/she simply doesn't get how to use Walter, the way to make it works and the associated images theming that necessarily goes with it ?

2) 'REAPER' is an acronym and the second letter of it is an E for 'Environment'. The problem is that, even if we change the theme used, we are stuck with the same toolbars and layout actions. I could also add to these, related actions and scripts. What I suggest is a new theme related file format that would allow us to put in it, at least and as a starting point, .ReaperMenu files and additionaly, .ReaperKeyMap, .lua and .eel ones.

3) TCP header and folder indentation. This is probably my most frustrating theming issue : actually, and when a folder indentation is involved, only the controls included in a TCP panel are shifted to the right, not the panel itself. Consequently, we are not able to freely color the left of this panel accordinly to the track color choosed, as soon as you put the involved track in a folder. I suggest that the whole TCP panel should be shifted and not only the controls included in it. Sure, it would leads to another problem concerning already existing themes compatibility. So, why not add a statement in the rtconfig.txt header for this, something like tcpshift=0/1 ?

4) At least, a second mixer view, which would allow us to set a dedicated mcp_inspector layout in a theme.

5) At least, one mixer toolbar, this to be able to quickly reach actions or scripts concerning mcp layouts or Mixer: Toggle... ones. It would also avoid the too much frequent need to use the master.mcp.menubutton.

6) An enhanced theming of the extended mixer area. The problem is that, presently, we have only few vertical pixels to include seperation of the different fxlist, fxparms and sendlist sections. More are needed to implement at least labels or meaningful graphic stuff. Ideally, it would also allow us to put in it a new and themable mcp.*area control to show/hide the involved section, this, independently for each track. In the same way, the height of each fx/send slot shouldn't be directly dependent of the mcp.fxlist/fxparm/sendlist.font : there is no logic in this, in my view...

7) Theming of mixer volume background when the mcp.extmixer.mode is set to 0, IOW, when the theme allows a vertical edimensioning of MCP panels. This to allow the display of graduations for the faders in the mcp panel. The technology already exists and is implemented for the scrollbar.png file theming. Why not extend it to mcp_vol.png files also ? I admit that there is another problem which concerns the different 'Volume fader shape' options in the preferences. But still... Maybe a solution could be to implement mcp_vollinear/volr3/volmax.png files for this.

8) Theming of the MIDI editor. Several things needed, here :
- The ruler font. This one is buggy : see here for more explanation about the issue... There should be a separated setting in the 'Theme tweak/configuration' window to avoid such an irritating pitfall.
- Horizontal redimensioning of the piano keys area : think it's self explaining...
- Separated background color settings for the ruler and CC area.
- Order of the transport area controls display : this seems to having been hardcoded somewhere. We should be able to reorder the different transport controls in here to follow, at least, what's been defined in the rtconfig.txt 'Trans' section.
- We should also be able to fix the fonts used for the two 'position' and 'pitch' fiels which, no matter the theme used, stay exactly the same...

9) An mcp.sendlist.fadermode is really needed, this...
- to get rid of the more or less appearing knob which is a nuisance when you try to use all the width available for decently readable 'send' labels.
- to get rid of the horrible 0 vertical line in it, which cloggs uselessly an already limited display area, as its true color is more or less depending of the 'Mixer send text' parameter of the 'Theme tweak/configuration' window. At least, we should be able to control the color of this line via a, say, mcp_sendzeroline parameter in the rtconfig.txt file.
- to straighten up the theming of the mcp_sendlist_meter.png which is, at its present state, a nightmare to do efficiently.

10) Theming of the fx window : at least, a fx_bg.png file would be welcomed...

11) Item/waveform transparency. There is a problem here : you can more or less set it, by carefully choosing the color of the peaks, but the 'Tint strength for media item background' no longer seems to acts as it was doing in previous Reaper 4.x versions, this, even if you don't use the tinttcp or peakedges statements in the rtconfig.txt header. Additionaly, we need a seperate 'Tint strength for selected/unselected peak' setting in the preferences 'Appearance-peaks/waveforms' options.

12) master.mcp panel behavior with track icons set and when vertically redimensioning the mixer : it's also buggy as it reacts in a delayed way compared to the other tracks and, worse, doesn't display the mcp panel background as it should, for a narrow range of the mcp vertical dimension, this one depending of the theme used.

13) In the same way, the master.mcp display doesn't obey to what's been stated in the rtconfig.txt header about the minimal height of it (mcp_min_height) when setted in an independent window, which leads to strange and unwanted graphical results...

14) master.mcp behavior when all the other tracks don't fit in the mixer window width. It's not truely related to theming, I admit, but well... I still can't get used to this, using Reaper since more than two years : the way all the tracks EXCEPTING the master one are jumping to allow place for the horizontal scrollbar. The latter one should follow them exactly the same way, even if a dummy scrollbar has to be displayed under it. Sorry to say, but coming from Cubase which elegantly solves the problem, this one is still making me wonder about Reaper UI implementation...

15) transparency of the fxparm controls : as irritating as can be. If there is no fxparm setted, there should NOT be any more or less dimmed controls appearing in the involved fxparm slot. It's a nightmare to theme it in order to get it truely empty.

16) Automation panels and horizontal faders. Buggy also : in the arrange view, when a track is put in a folder, the controls of the envcp panel don't behave as the tcp ones. Just an example : try to set an horizontal fader for both the tcp volume and the envcp parameter with exactly the same Walter statements allowing the regular horizontal redimensioning of them, according to the tcp width one. The latter will react jumpily, this, as more as the parent track folderdepth value is high. I had to abandon any use of horizontal fader in envcp panels, thanks to this one...


This might be appearing as a rant : I no longer care, as I'm rather fed up with Reaper theming at it present state, I admit. From now on, I will only maintain my Cubicpack which is available in the stash, this, until there are true and useful theming improvements available...

The list not exhaustive, of course. Feel free to discuss it or add here things that could be missing, in your view...


EDIT : I forgot one...
17) Master track theming (again...). We have mcp_master_*.png files equivalents for all the things 'fxlist' or 'sendlist' related in the mcp panel. But strangely, absolutely nothing concerning the 'fxparm' ones. Why so ? There are many situations in which such (especially a mcp_master_fxparm_bg.png) would be helpful...
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Last edited by cubic13; 01-03-2016 at 02:28 AM.
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Old 01-02-2016, 12:13 PM   #2
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I have no clue of themeing except for had a look into it and closed it after 10 seconds or so.

so I really dont know what I am talking about here, please feel free to tell me that I am talking complete bs and I will shut up.

but: there is this wonderful thing called HTML5 and CSS3. as many of you will know, this is used to make websites. interestingly it can be used to make everything up what has to do with anything that should be displayed graphically. (dont know what elese then grahical things you could display, anyway.)

the wonderful thing with HTML5 and CSS3 is, that it can be dynamically, conditionally (alone to an extent or with the use of any language like python, javascript, or others.)

is it a crazy idea to think that such a markup language would make sense within WALTER? even to incorporate SVG-images (vector-images, that can be resized to any extend without loosing quality)?

at least make usage of the HTML- and CSS-syntax regarding colors, fonts, positioning of elements, resizing and moving elements.

I know that this would mean to have parts of a browsers rendering engine build into reaper, at least some core-functions. but I dont believe that that would blow up the code, because to use WALTER here is needed too some code and an interpreting engine.
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Old 01-03-2016, 02:11 AM   #3
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@LightOfDay
In theory, maybe 'HTML/CSS3' could help as alternatives, but I prefer focusing on what is already existing : we have a functional language as well as a set of image files and layouts which have been used for hundreds of themes at our disposal in the stash. Let's use what is existing first...

The problem is that the whole thing has somehow been left at an unachieved and sometimes buggy state. From which, the purpose of this thread : to remind the bakers that one of the most powerful feature of Reaper, which distinguished it from any other host, needs a serious update.
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Old 01-03-2016, 08:29 AM   #4
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i have only dabbled in theming, mainly just tweaking existing themes, but i definitely agree with you cubic13 on most of the points you raised (and the others i dont know anything about so im sure they are probably good suggestions too )

i will say however, as someone who worked as a web developer for almost a decade, i would HATE to see HTML/CSS used as the theming language for reaper. please god no.

the ability to implement SVG/vectors on the other hand, would be unbelievably fantastic.
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Old 01-03-2016, 09:28 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewjumpsoffbuildings View Post

i will say however, as someone who worked as a web developer for almost a decade, i would HATE to see HTML/CSS used as the theming language for reaper. please god no.
so it was just an idea, I do have no clue how to implemet that. the idea came because with HTML/CSS you can define spaces, colors, fonts even moving of items and altering heights and width in a powerful and most exactly way.

and amongst colleagues in the web-develop-department: you should know that you could do with HTML/CSS you could make the whole thing dynamic and responsive, in a way that cant be now achieved with WALTER alone. afaik. and personal relationsship with HTML/CSS shouldnt go in the way if it can deliver progress. (as I see with the Cockos websites there is not much love nor knowledge for and about webdesign at all. but thats another discussion.)

and by no means HTML/CSS should replace WALTER. it was an idea to add that in places where every other language used is failing to be as flexible as needed.
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Old 01-03-2016, 12:03 PM   #6
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I think we need vector based GUI. I know it is a bit pain in the butt, but it will benefit in future with 4K and 8K monitors hiting the stores.
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Old 01-03-2016, 09:01 PM   #7
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Walter theming does seem very arcane and unapproachable, so I'd welcome anything that made it easier to comprehend. I do a lot of graphics work, including vector, but no coding whatsoever.
Anything that bridged the gap a bit would be encouraging - ultimately some kind of interface for the bewildered
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Old 01-04-2016, 10:59 AM   #8
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I'm not sure how WINAMP implemented themes, or if Justin was directly involved in that part of the programming, but they must've done something right with that one. The community seems really vibrant, showing off tons of variety/flexibility, seemingly from lonely graphic designers with nothing better to do

Responses to the first post:

1) White Tie recently posted about trying to make documentation better, so no doubt the folks in charge agree. Not sure what's confusing about file name associations though... if you can't figure that out there's probably no hope for you!!!! (just kidding, sorta...)

2) Have you worked with REAPER-wide configuration file import/export (Preferences > General)? I'd LOVE to see some work done on popular variations that totally change everything in one step, like a "Protools" or "Cubase" config that matches as much as possible to help those users jump right into REAPER. Maybe there are some out there, buried under the Stash

3) Yea I came across a similar problem. It might also help to be able to specific what element gets "background tint" applied to it?

4-17) No comment really, except YES there's plenty of room for improvement.
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Old 01-05-2016, 08:22 AM   #9
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Lightofday, from my perspective HTML/CSS is an ongoing attempt to polish a turd. the HTML spec was designed for text, and then at some point people started to add more and more cruft to it to allow for 'styling'. at the end of the day its a bloated and often confusing spec with a myriad of different implementations and bugs and i hate it.

id much rather a well documented, lean and simple theming language/system that was tailored to reaper specifically, instead of smooshing HTML/CSS into the mix, which imo would just add complications and confusion. for starters people who were completely new to theming and who had no experience with web dev, would have to learn the reaper specific theming stuff, as well as learn about HTML/CSS.

adXok, you are right, at some point, considering ever-increasing screen resolutions, vector GUI options will be a necessity. theres only so far scaling of raster components can go before it starts to look like total shit.
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Old 01-05-2016, 10:53 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomm View Post
I'm not sure how WINAMP implemented themes, or if Justin was directly involved in that part of the programming, but they must've done something right with that one. The community seems really vibrant, showing off tons of variety/flexibility, seemingly from lonely graphic designers with nothing better to do

Responses to the first post:

1) White Tie recently posted about trying to make documentation better, so no doubt the folks in charge agree. Not sure what's confusing about file name associations though... if you can't figure that out there's probably no hope for you!!!! (just kidding, sorta...)

2) Have you worked with REAPER-wide configuration file import/export (Preferences > General)? I'd LOVE to see some work done on popular variations that totally change everything in one step, like a "Protools" or "Cubase" config that matches as much as possible to help those users jump right into REAPER. Maybe there are some out there, buried under the Stash

3) Yea I came across a similar problem. It might also help to be able to specific what element gets "background tint" applied to it?

4-17) No comment really, except YES there's plenty of room for improvement.
Thanks for your comments . Few answers...

1) Let's hope that there will indeed be improvements concerning the docs. About the files associations, I already did enough of theming to know them almost by heart, now. I was putting myself as a newbie who wants to get involved, here.

2) I have thought about this, sometime ago. The problem is not configuring the environment by importing a .ReaperConfigZip file : this is indeed easy and straightforward. It's for any potential user who want to test a theme to be able to quickly retrieve its previous own Reaper configuration. If he/she doesn't carefully save completely its configuration before the test, it could be quite difficult to set everything as it was previously : I already experienced it the hard way by making such a mistake a while ago with an old theme which was available in the stash this way. So I have avoid using such a solution for my own themes, as nothing can assure me that any potential tester previous configuration will be safely retrievable.

3) This can be done indeed and works until a track is put in a folder : in this case, the graphic results are simply unacceptable, as the folder_indent.png recovers an area proportionaly to the folderdepth variable. And we have no way to make such an area accordingly extendable in the tcp_bg[sel].png one.
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Old 01-05-2016, 12:02 PM   #11
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right on cubic... as always [reflected by your super theme work] you have been very clear and detailed and precise.
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Old 01-05-2016, 02:49 PM   #12
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Quote:
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I think we need vector based GUI. I know it is a bit pain in the butt, but it will benefit in future with 4K and 8K monitors hiting the stores.
Will be a ground up rewrite, which is less likely than commercial development of Reaper stopping, so i would doubt this will ever happen
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Old 01-06-2016, 02:47 PM   #13
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Thanks, hopi. As always...
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Old 01-06-2016, 03:13 PM   #14
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Lightofday, from my perspective HTML/CSS is an ongoing attempt to polish a turd. the HTML spec was designed for text, and then at some point people started to add more and more cruft to it to allow for 'styling'. at the end of the day its a bloated and often confusing spec with a myriad of different implementations and bugs and i hate it.
well, seen under this angle you are right. and Tim Berners-Lee is surely with you on this. and he should know.

I didnt think of implementing the whole W3C shebang. only parts that can tell something about colors, width and heights to make a theme really dynamic. implementing SVG-icons, and using CSS for gradients, borders and background-color. even for shadowing its more simple than all that Photoshop-fiddling which is needed for the stupidest things. and the results are not responsive. argh.
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Old 07-13-2017, 08:20 AM   #15
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Any vector GUI consideration so far?
Cockos, we now you can do it... and no, none will say you are trying to copy FL Studio, Ableton or Bitwig.

Thanks for making such a great DAW and helping us make music!
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Old 07-13-2017, 12:00 PM   #16
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Dear Cubic, don't wait for important changes (my guess). It is a matter of priorities, theming/GUI and MIDI are the last wagons of Reaper's train.
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Old 07-13-2017, 01:23 PM   #17
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Er - it isnt so long ago that people were whining about too much attention being paid to MIDI.

Me? I was pretty happy with what we DID get but of course I WANT MORE
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:44 PM   #18
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Just check the logs ...

https://www.landoleet.org/whatsnew5.txt

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Old 07-13-2017, 08:45 PM   #19
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Jriver has a great theming language(and expression language for everything under the sun), maybe they could offer feedback?
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Old 07-13-2017, 11:51 PM   #20
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I was probably in a bad mood when posting this, more than a year and a half ago. And yes, I'm still theming, as I like this and, in a way, try to show in my own way to the devs that this part of Reaper is one of its main strength and visibly, they lost it. But the essential remains valid, excepting maybe for the points 15) and 16) : there are workarounds for them. So, as I'm still in an anger mood, I'm going to add five other ones, hoping that this thread will reorient itself strictly to theming as it is now in Reaper, instead of an endless discussion about a vector graphical system or other different scripting tools : they are perfectly valuable but not the point of it. Back to the following points, actually, I'm wondering how comes that I didn't state them at first, as they are truely important ; maybe because my first post was already too long... So, here they are :

18) We are limited to only two degree of subfolders imbrication in the graphic one for a given theme. In many cases, this force us to create several subfolders with redundent controls, increasing uselessly the size of the theme and the numbers of files needed to make it work. A typical example : layouts with different colored fader thumbs...

19) There is no way to set the background color of a given toolbar (beside the main one with the toolbar_bg.png file). The result is that there is no way to make conveniently a toolbar appear in the midi editor with the same background as the one specified for the midi editor in the theme tweak window.

20) There are two states of the pan/width setting that use both pan and width controls. Strangely there is no way to make them visually distinct one from the other. What I think is needed here are tcp/mcp_pan2*.png files to be used with 'Dual pan' mode, the tcp/mcp_width*.png being only used with the 'Stereo pan' one.

21) The labels and idx numbers behavior : often, these suddenly change their reading orientation from horizontal to vertical in a more or less erratical way. I know that it's more or less related to the height/width ratio of the control but there are many situations in which this behavior is a nuisance. We should be able to control it, via a Walter instruction ; something like this : set tcp.trackidx.dispos h<45 [0] [1], instead of having to fiddle with the involved control margins...

22) The automation modes tinting. How comes that we don't have a dedicated color for each one ? We presently have only three, one of them being shared by latch, touch and preview states and we are not even allowed to set a transparency value to them. I don't know how much time I spent on my different themes, trying to get a more or less acceptable result of the whole thing which cannot be deactivated.

I just see presently that almost NOTHING has been done since several years through all the Reaper 5.xx cycle, theming related, as Vagalume and doppelganger rightly stated it. So, I would really like one member of the cockos crew to chime here and state honestly what is visible for all of us (with, if possible, explanations concerning it) : theming is dead, as well as the stash, and the development crew no longer wants to bother with them...
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:36 AM   #21
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I just picked up themeing/GIMP again and that is about bloodymary time!
What we can't do atm and the fact I am slow-as-heck atm won't stop me!
I sure appreciate'ness what we can do and I also appreciate the enthusiasm of others providing information.
Just don't go to far and call our dev's grandma's cat a llama and stuff like that and we will be fine, know what I mean? just saying/thinking, therefore I am.
Love ya!
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:57 AM   #22
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Which you didnt do. Apparently you didnt go back to the fall of 2016 which was around the time MIDI got a serious thrashing.

I sort of understand where you are coming from, but sometimes your perspective isnt the same as mine - I am an old fart so tend to take the longer view!

Anyway, don`t give up - eventually they WILL get round to doing something that YOU personally want. But with a 2 man team it takes time and what the french call "volonte" - closest equivalent I guess is they need to build up some more "wanna".
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Old 07-14-2017, 05:20 AM   #23
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Which you didnt do. Apparently you didnt go back to the fall of 2016 which was around the time MIDI got a serious thrashing.

I sort of understand where you are coming from, but sometimes your perspective isnt the same as mine - I am an old fart so tend to take the longer view!

Anyway, don`t give up - eventually they WILL get round to doing something that YOU personally want. But with a 2 man team it takes time and what the french call "volonte" - closest equivalent I guess is they need to build up some more "wanna".
Ivan I did. "Serious thrasing" is relative, well, everything is relative in life ...

I know that they will try to get what you, me and users need ... but as I said, it is a matter of priorities we know that they can't do 200 things at the same time, maybe Reaper is so cheap ...

So priorities, I don't have to share theirs ... obviously they don't have to share mine either. Theming is not my main priority, and it is not theirs at all (log is there in case you want to have a look at it again).

I won't give up, because Reaper is the best bloody DAW ... though I have to use shitty Cubase for some things ...
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Old 07-14-2017, 05:30 AM   #24
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Vag - serious compared to the wilderness years (or it seemed like it at the time) that preceded this little spurt of activity. Actually, by sheer coincidence that particular set of MIDI fixes solved enough of my problems that I haven't gone back to Sonars MIDI editor since.
Relatively happy bunny here at present.

sadly I know MY pet FR (hybrid stave editing) is pretty much dead in the water since the Notation editor arrived. *sigh*
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Old 07-14-2017, 05:40 AM   #25
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The glass half full ... the glass half empty.
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:07 AM   #26
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20) There are two states of the pan/width setting that use both pan and width controls. Strangely there is no way to make them visually distinct one from the other. What I think is needed here are tcp/mcp_pan2*.png files to be used with 'Dual pan' mode, the tcp/mcp_width*.png being only used with the 'Stereo pan' one.
yes you can. You can use mcp_pan_knob_stack.png, mcp_pan_knob_stack_1.png, mcp_pan_knob_stack_2.png (and same for width) and Walter will choose the right one depending on exact pixel height and width expressed in the .size parameter. Even if the knob have the same size you can cheat WAlter by adding 1 pixel in the empty area

See attach track 5 has Stereo Pan, track 6 has Dual Pan (and the knobs have different colors), track 7 is normal pan.



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Old 07-14-2017, 09:28 AM   #27
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re all your point

1 yes
2 yes
3 this would be a big change with no retro-compatibility... but yes
4 yes floating mixer tracks are missing in general
5 mmmhhhh
6 - 17 yes with varied priorities... 10, 11, 15 probably the highest prio?
18 yessss
19 mmm I use icons for the toolbar so dunno...
20 as per my other post
21 yesss it's a nightmare
22 you mean tinting of the faders when in different automation modes?

I would add
23 possibility to position additional images (.png) not related to any command in specific tcp/mcp places to embellish and improve the graphics
24 possibility to control font size of peak indicator over the meters

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Old 07-14-2017, 09:47 AM   #28
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18) We are limited to only two degree of subfolders imbrication in the graphic one for a given theme. In many cases, this force us to create several subfolders with redundent controls, increasing uselessly the size of the theme and the numbers of files needed to make it work. A typical example : layouts with different colored fader thumbs...
More than one level of folder depth can be used, but not in the 'MyTheme.ReaperThemeZip' form.
you have to have the folder and theme file unpacked or not in a single Zip file form.

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20) There are two states of the pan/width setting that use both pan and width controls. Strangely there is no way to make them visually distinct one from the other. What I think is needed here are tcp/mcp_pan2*.png files to be used with 'Dual pan' mode, the tcp/mcp_width*.png being only used with the 'Stereo pan' one.
Lately, I've been making Dual Pan and Width modes distinct by changing the width knob to a smaller size and leave the Pan knob the same size it is in single Pan mode.
Dual Pan mode has two knobs the same size, but usually smaller than the single Pan mode.
The other option I'm using is sliders for Pan/Width mode and dual knobs for Dual Pan mode.

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21) The labels and idx numbers behavior : often, these suddenly change their reading orientation from horizontal to vertical in a more or less erratical way. I know that it's more or less related to the height/width ratio of the control but there are many situations in which this behavior is a nuisance. We should be able to control it, via a Walter instruction ; something like this : set tcp.trackidx.dispos h<45 [0] [1], instead of having to fiddle with the involved control margins....
I would like to see an additional digit added to the sizing or margin code that defines the reading direction.
EX. 1 = left-to-right, 2 = bottom-to-top, 3 = top-to-bottom

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22) The automation modes tinting. How comes that we don't have a dedicated color for each one ? We presently have only three, one of them being shared by latch, touch and preview states and we are not even allowed to set a transparency value to them. I don't know how much time I spent on my different themes, trying to get a more or less acceptable result of the whole thing which cannot be deactivated.
Agreed. It would be better if we could define this reflect the color used for the current button state.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:07 AM   #29
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Thank you all for for chiming in...

@Gianfini
I should have look more closely at the mcp/tcp_pan/width_knob_stack1/2....png more closely. Completely forgot about them and I'm two times guilty as I already used the different scrollbars available the same way in my CubicPack themes. I'll have to test this, but thanks for the tip : so, let's say that my point 20) is solved, but this kind of thing bring us back to my point 1) : where is the documentation concerning the exact role of each different 1,2,3 numbered knob stacks and scrollbars ?

About the point 22), yes. We have only three colors available in the Theme/tweak configuration window and there are actually six automation modes (seven with the 'bypass' one for the global control). Worse : the tinting affects all the area of the mcp_volbg.png which isn't included in yellow lines, leading to an oversized tinted background of faders in several cases. And, AFAIK, this rudimental tinting cannot be deactivated.

Beside this, I should have added what you suggested as 23) and 24) points, especially the latter : it's nuisance to have to make meters wide enough to include a correct and not truncated display of the font fixed readout display.


@Lucas_LCS
About my point 18), this is interesting, as I see here two levels allowed in the regular .ReaperThemeZip format. I admit that I never thought of another one, so, could you add more informations about how to proceed ?

Point 20) : could be a solution, yes, but I would like to be able to keep the two knobs at the same size, the only thing changing being the tint of the width one ; something like this :
- Dual pan mode : panL (grey) - panR (grey)
- Stereo pan mode : pan (grey) - width (red)

Point 21) : it could be indeed another way of managing this.


Thanks again.
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Old 07-15-2017, 10:20 AM   #30
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@Lucas_LCS
About my point 18), this is interesting, as I see here two levels allowed in the regular .ReaperThemeZip format. I admit that I never thought of another one, so, could you add more informations about how to proceed ?
I discovered this during my Solaris mod.
I have fader colors 5 folders deep that worked fine while I was developing it.
Example:
C:\REAPER\ColorThemes\Solaris_LCS_Blue_v2\fullsize \spacer\faders\red
When I packed the image folder and theme file into the .ReaperThemeZip format, it stopped working.
It appears to only be a limitation when using a packed or Zipped theme.
Unfortunately, I think the several levels of nested folders may be causing or at least contributing to the slow load time for the theme.
I haven't tested that theory yet, though.

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Point 20) : could be a solution, yes, but I would like to be able to keep the two knobs at the same size, the only thing changing being the tint of the width one ; something like this :
- Dual pan mode : panL (grey) - panR (grey)
- Stereo pan mode : pan (grey) - width (red)
Yes, that sounds similar to what Gianfini did. I also thought about doing that, but switching to sliders or making the width noticeably smaller makes it faster to recognize the state.
In Gianfini screenshot, I have to look twice or stare at longer to see which state it's in.
Twin knobs look awesome, though.
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Old 07-18-2017, 07:55 AM   #31
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I discovered this during my Solaris mod.
I have fader colors 5 folders deep that worked fine while I was developing it.
Example:
C:\REAPER\ColorThemes\Solaris_LCS_Blue_v2\fullsize \spacer\faders\red
When I packed the image folder and theme file into the .ReaperThemeZip format, it stopped working.
It appears to only be a limitation when using a packed or Zipped theme.
...
OK, but how to distribute a theme without its native format, as the .ReaperThemeZip is the only one that is actually fully working from one system to another ? From which, the 2 degrees of folder imbrications limit remains...
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Old 07-18-2017, 08:05 AM   #32
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Yes, that sounds similar to what Gianfini did. I also thought about doing that, but switching to sliders or making the width noticeably smaller makes it faster to recognize the state.
In Gianfini screenshot, I have to look twice or stare at longer to see which state it's in.
Twin knobs look awesome, though.
You can do same knob size, but just one pixel apart of width with no graphic information (a transparent additional pixel line on one side), so that you can switch the graph depending on the mode. You can do it with stack but not with static knob, dunno why.

Then obviously it's a personal choice whether to make it more subtle as I did or more evident (maybe changing totally the graphics). The only rule should be to make Stereo Pan and Dual Pan different because their effect in the mix is vastly different!

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Old 07-19-2017, 12:31 AM   #33
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I'll only comment on things that I know at least something about.

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19) There is no way to set the background color of a given toolbar (beside the main one with the <i>toolbar_bg.png</i> file). The result is that there is no way to make conveniently a toolbar appear in the midi editor with the same background as the one specified for the midi editor in the theme tweak window.
There's no colour involved in any toolbar, despite having developed such tinting tools for other bits of Reaper. Simply being able to control colour backgrounds of both toolbars and toolbar buttons can improve usability. Reusing image assets with different colour tinting could vastly expand use of these provided resources. This is a big opportunity we're missing out on.


Quote:
20) There are two states of the pan/width setting that use both pan and width controls. Strangely there is no way to make them visually distinct one from the other. What I think is needed here are <i>tcp/mcp_pan2*.png</i> files to be used with 'Dual pan' mode, the <i>tcp/mcp_width*.png</i> being only used with the 'Stereo pan' one.
Possible now with knob stacks as others have stated, but the Default theme is pretty bad for me here. Volume and pan controls look so similar on the TCP that I routinely hover a mouse cursor over it to be sure about what I'm touching. I hope it can be made better.

Is a Wiki a good repository to keep this information together ? We didn't do a terrific job on the current Wiki to be honest.

How would you collect such documentation so that folks could submit updates ? Is something available like GIT for documenation ?


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22) The automation modes tinting. How comes that we don't have a dedicated color for each one ? We presently have only three, one of them being shared by latch, touch and preview states and we are not even allowed to set a transparency value to them. I don't know how much time I spent on my different themes, trying to get a more or less acceptable result of the whole thing which cannot be deactivated.
This is the most major concern for me when looking at other themes. I basically mix in Reaper all day. I keep parameter knobs on a Small Sidecar layout, so I can see lots of parameters across the height of my sreen. I need to see if a parameter has been latched or not.

I completely agree on additional colours being necessary and fine control of all this being given to the theme author.

LATCH PREVIEW is blue(ish). When you touch/change something in that mode, nothing is written, yet the colour indicators for volume, pan, width/pan2 and parameter knobs turn RED. This is handled better for TOUCH mode where stuff is YELLOW up front and RED only when you are writing to that parameters envelope.

To add to the confusion, when you execute the action to clear all latches some parameters appear to stay latched but are not. That's a bug report though, not a theming problme.



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I just see presently that almost NOTHING has been done since several years through all the Reaper 5.xx cycle, theming related, as Vagalume and doppelganger rightly stated it. So, I would really like one member of the cockos crew to chime here and state honestly what is visible for all of us (with, if possible, explanations concerning it) : theming is dead, as well as the stash, and the development crew no longer wants to bother with them...
White Tie has been very quiet lately. Maybe they're up to something ?

Justin , Schwa , WhiteTie , how about an update gentlemen ?
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:18 AM   #34
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OK, but how to distribute a theme without its native format, as the .ReaperThemeZip is the only one that is actually fully working from one system to another ? From which, the 2 degrees of folder imbrications limit remains...
That's not been my experience.
Any theme that has 'Zip' at the end is just a zip file with 2 items inside:
- mytheme.ReaperTheme (theme file, no 'Zip' at the end)
- mytheme (image folder)
put both in Reaper's ColorThemes folder and it should work.
If it doesn't, then open the theme tweaker and point the theme to the correct image folder and save the theme.
Alternatively, you can just edit the theme file with a text editor to point it to the correct image folder.
To distribute the finished theme just pack them both in regular zip file.
EX: mytheme.zip (note the 'dot')
tell the users to unzip and put both items in the ColorThemes folder.
This is what I did and have had very few users that didn't understand or only needed a quick clarification.

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Old 07-19-2017, 01:32 AM   #35
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You can do same knob size, but just one pixel apart of width with no graphic information (a transparent additional pixel line on one side), so that you can switch the graph depending on the mode. You can do it with stack but not with static knob, dunno why.

Then obviously it's a personal choice whether to make it more subtle as I did or more evident (maybe changing totally the graphics). The only rule should be to make Stereo Pan and Dual Pan different because their effect in the mix is vastly different!
I think you did fine job. I only meant that for me, it's quicker to notice changes in shape and size than color changes.


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Old 07-19-2017, 01:47 AM   #36
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...the Default theme is pretty bad for me here. Volume and pan controls look so similar on the TCP that I routinely hover a mouse cursor over it to be sure about what I'm touching..
have you tried switching out or altering the PNG files for one of them?
you can try one of the ones I made:
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=178

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Old 07-20-2017, 02:07 AM   #37
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Thank you Lucas, I'll try those out.

Knobman ?
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Old 07-20-2017, 02:16 AM   #38
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Possible now with knob stacks as others have stated, but the Default theme is pretty bad for me here. Volume and pan controls look so similar on the TCP that I routinely hover a mouse cursor over it to be sure about what I'm touching. I hope it can be made better.
Really? That doesn't sound right at all, could you perhaps share a screenshot?
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Old 07-21-2017, 02:01 AM   #39
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It's just standard layouts.

I touch volume controls on the TCP so rarely, I actually have to think which of the two(or three if width comes in) possible types it is. The buttons are the same size and in similar positions.

In the TCP layout "be -- Small expanding, popup fader", the elements appearance depends on how tall the TCP is. The pan is just a lighter shade of grey, compared to when a round knob for volume shows up next to the track name.

-edit-
I should mention that close to all tracks have their volume and pan parameters automated, so they're all usually coloured in green or yellow most of the time. Shades show up less well that way too.

Just writing about it now will likely make me remember it for a few days.

Maybe I'm a special case. Rare use of TCP controls, so I spend almost no time learning them beyond the most obvious tells, which these two knobs have the least of of all the controls on the TCP.

Apart from the automation buttons, I'm otherwise quite content using the default theme. Most other themes make some bits of the visuals messier.
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Old 07-21-2017, 02:33 AM   #40
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The pan is just a lighter shade of grey, compared to when a round knob for volume shows up next to the track name.
Like this?

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