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Old 01-02-2022, 04:59 PM   #1
jannikthary
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Default Audio Dropouts during Mixing sessions

I‘m using reaper for 4 years now absolutely loving its possibilities. I spent months on configurations and found solutions to almost every major concern I had so far.

The major issue I‘m unfortunately still experiencing is having heavy Audio Dropouts during Mixing sessions. As I already spent whole days every now and then trying to make this work I really hope to find someone helping me out via Team Viewer / Zoom finally solving this.

macOS Catalina 10.15.7
MacBook Pro (16-inch, 2019)
2,4 GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9
64 GB 2667 MHz DDR4
4TB SSD
Intel UHD Graphics 630 1536 MB
Recently I updated my Interface from Babyface 2012 to a new UAD Apollo X4 Heritage experiencing the same issue.

Sometimes the dropouts can be reduced by closing all open Plugin windows and stop the playback and than play again.
(As shown in this video: https://youtu.be/oRFLQuQvaqA)

But this isn’t always the case and nothing I can confirm being reproducible all the time.
In this video the RT CPU highly rises up so dropouts make sense I guess, but this isn’t always the case either.
The CPU-Performance usually stays around 25-45%. In the video its very high (around 50). Right after filming I kept all plugins closed, hit pause and waited for 1-3 minutes, hit play again and everything is was running pretty smooth again with CPU staying around 25-30% and RT CPU sitting at 2-3%. When I started making adjustments the Mix and plugins the dropouts come back - but not always immediately. I got the feeling opening up plugins with real time visualisation like “Fab Filter pro-Q3” increases the chance to get dropouts faster.

Like in this video when making some actions like hitting pause/play or tweaking some plugin settings the spinning wheel occasionally shows up - sometimes it spins for about minute without any response.
Sometimes when I just started my Computer opening a Mix straight away things are going fine for quite a while. I realised the dropouts are likely being increased by having other Programs like Firefox and Apple Mail running as well. Once the issues occured after a fresh start, they seem to stay regardless of closing and reopening the project or even reaper itself.
I also noticed my transport bar usually isn’t flushing during these dropouts.

Experimenting with this issue a lot reading through several forum threads regarding similar experiences I optimized a few settings already as accurate as I‘m capable of doing this:
- First I had the majority of the setup routing based on folder tracks. As discussed in this article reaper seems to handle heavy PDC plugins better when routed manually instead. So I routed manually after the first layer where single tracks going into their Auxes (otherwise I had to manually rout all single tracks as well instead of currently drag and dropping under the Auxes when setting up a new Mixing Session).
- I disabled PDC-compensation for plugins in my master chain
- I thought it could have been an issue using a mixture of VST and AU plug-in versions, so I‘m recently just using VST and VST3.
I still got the dropouts but I’m thinking the spinning wheel shows up less and Reaper might ain’t be freezing for that long anymore (Not tested enough).
- I made some adjustments to the buffering settings ending up with something I found working best so far (Attachment).
Adjusting the buffer size itself sometimes helps. Sometimes lowering the buffer size reduces the dropouts more than increasing.

These adjustments helped a lot already having dropouts only when having many plugins running.
I couldn’t figure out just one certain thing causing this issue.
Unfortunately I’m not that technically involved in the IT behind this to provide a more detailed report or further optimise Reapers performence. I’m looking forward to get in contact with you guys to hopefully figure this out soon, as I’m loving working with Reaper.

As I experienced the dropouts occure only when applying complex routing including summing and heavy plugin processing on the buses. For example applying even more and heavier plugins on every single track without summing results in no issues at all.
unfortunately for me Mixing has the purpose of summing and processing signals together is essential for me. My Setup is based on Buses and contains side-chain routings.

I figured out a few ways to reduce Audio-Dropouts or make them disappear by minimizing certain parts of the setup, Switch routing or disable plugins. Maybe this helps finding a solution:
- I’m using a vocal chain of around 20 plug-in instances. If I bypass the majority the dropouts disappear.
- Reducing the number of vocal tracks going into the vocal chain makes the dropouts dissapear.
- I‘m using a mastering chain of around 10 plugins. If I bypass the majority the dropouts disappear.

Besides the dropouts I also want to mention that I’m experiencing random crashes on loading projects every thew days. If it’s crashing it’s likely to crash several times until it randomly doesn’t crash anymore opening the exact same project. A restart of the Mac most of the time seems to help here as well (Example: Attachment).

Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts with me!
Attached Files
File Type: zip Buffer settings & Reaper Crash Support.zip (578.9 KB, 86 views)
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Old 01-02-2022, 05:51 PM   #2
domzy
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Originally Posted by jannikthary View Post
- I’m using a vocal chain of around 20 plug-in instances. If I bypass the majority the dropouts disappear.
I can't help, sorry, but i'm not that surprised you get glitches if you run loads of plugins.
Out of curiosity, why do you need 20 plugins in the chain?
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Old 01-02-2022, 08:11 PM   #3
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Just a quick thought, as I sometimes have similar issues and have been keeping an eye on threads about these issues. Not sure if these suggestions will help....

On tracks that have a lot of plugins on a single track (you mentioned sometimes 20), try using 2 tracks, audio file on the first track, route that first track to a second one and split the plugin load across the 2 tracks. Apparently Reaper can't split plugin processing on a single track across several cores, it's all processed on one core. So a track with a lot of plugins on it might be overloading a single core of your processor, even though the other cores aren't that taxed. By splitting the load across a couple or more tracks, you're splitting the load across more of your CPU cores.

For your master chain, also do the same thing! Route everything into a new track before your master channel, route that track to the master, and split the plugin load across those - for the same reason as above.

I'm not totally up on the technical aspects of what's going on, but these have both helped me in the past on sessions with a lot of plugin processing. Hope that helps!
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Old 01-03-2022, 01:00 AM   #4
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The same happens here in case of some plugins (Leapwing, Acustica) - when added on a track (when on items, not). The weird thing is that when I open a new session, add loads of these plugins, all smooth. Even when I copy things from the previous sessions. It will start later .

https://youtu.be/TgPPRlt5-d0
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Old 01-03-2022, 10:09 AM   #5
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You need to look at individual core loading....your projects sound like they will be overloading a single core with loads of plugs in series (possibly plus master fx, etc too)

This is very old but maybe still works?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWNYGDSYGFw
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Old 01-04-2022, 03:26 PM   #6
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Thanks for getting back to me that quickly guys!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Ranger View Post
Just a quick thought, as I sometimes have similar issues and have been keeping an eye on threads about these issues. Not sure if these suggestions will help....

On tracks that have a lot of plugins on a single track (you mentioned sometimes 20), try using 2 tracks, audio file on the first track, route that first track to a second one and split the plugin load across the 2 tracks. Apparently Reaper can't split plugin processing on a single track across several cores, it's all processed on one core. So a track with a lot of plugins on it might be overloading a single core of your processor, even though the other cores aren't that taxed. By splitting the load across a couple or more tracks, you're splitting the load across more of your CPU cores.

For your master chain, also do the same thing! Route everything into a new track before your master channel, route that track to the master, and split the plugin load across those - for the same reason as above.

I'm not totally up on the technical aspects of what's going on, but these have both helped me in the past on sessions with a lot of plugin processing. Hope that helps!
first of all: how exaclty can I "keep an eye on the threads"?

I did split my Mastering chain already. Means: The sum of all my Auxes Ends up in one Mastering trach which is routed to a second one. baisicly said some Eqing and compression is happening on the first while the second one handles Tape (UAD ATR 102), parallel mutiband (Leapwing dynone) and Limiting (bx Limiter or Ozone 9 or Fabfilter pro L).
I split the vocal chain already as well some processing sitting on "All" vocals and some before that on several grouped channels. These grouped channels still have the longest plugin chain sitting on one Aux Track. I’ll try to sptit them up as well. Cheers!
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Old 01-09-2022, 02:41 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Stella645 View Post
You need to look at individual core loading....your projects sound like they will be overloading a single core with loads of plugs in series (possibly plus master fx, etc too)

This is very old but maybe still works?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWNYGDSYGFw
https://youtu.be/80L7ETPSobE
I checked this with several Mixing Projects. It seems like every second core is barely stressed or even not really used at all while the other half is struggling being almost overloaded. Does it make sense that this unstable power spred might be causing dropouts?
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Old 01-10-2022, 07:24 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jannikthary View Post
https://youtu.be/80L7ETPSobE
I checked this with several Mixing Projects. It seems like every second core is barely stressed or even not really used at all while the other half is struggling being almost overloaded. Does it make sense that this unstable power spred might be causing dropouts?
Yes....any one core near max load will lead to dropouts.

Firstly, splitting tracks as you describe is probably not helping that much as there is still a requirement to process these things in series.
It's not as simple as one track one core once you also introduce buses and master fx.

Never put plugs on actual master, a pre master bus will be able to utilise anticipative FX but the master can't.

If you really need to use cpu heavy plugs on the master during the mix then you should probably look at using a third party app to help offload this process to different cores. Running these plugs in Jbridge or Audiogridder can help spread the load more evenly.

But 20 plugin vocal chain? Seriously....use less plugins or if you are doing stuff like tuning, commit and render.
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Old 01-23-2022, 03:30 PM   #9
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Yes....any one core near max load will lead to dropouts.

Firstly, splitting tracks as you describe is probably not helping that much as there is still a requirement to process these things in series.
It's not as simple as one track one core once you also introduce buses and master fx.

Never put plugs on actual master, a pre master bus will be able to utilise anticipative FX but the master can't.

If you really need to use cpu heavy plugs on the master during the mix then you should probably look at using a third party app to help offload this process to different cores. Running these plugs in Jbridge or Audiogridder can help spread the load more evenly.

But 20 plugin vocal chain? Seriously....use less plugins or if you are doing stuff like tuning, commit and render.
Thanks for trying to help.

So there's probably nothing I can do except reducing the number of plugins beeing proecessed in series?

I can only tell from my experiences working in established recording studios assissting several engineers, a number of 20 Plugins in series from vocal Track to Master Out is beeing reached almost every time.
Usually Pro-Tools is beeing used.

So does Pro Tools simply heandle spreading the core load much better?
I still hope someone can help me with this as I belive in the power of reaper :O
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Old 01-24-2022, 02:39 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by jannikthary View Post
https://youtu.be/80L7ETPSobE
I checked this with several Mixing Projects. It seems like every second core is barely stressed or even not really used at all while the other half is struggling being almost overloaded. Does it make sense that this unstable power spred might be causing dropouts?
That looks weird. What are your settings in Audio/Buffer?
I assume you have an 8 core Intel based machine?
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Old 01-24-2022, 02:40 PM   #11
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Thanks for trying to help.
So does Pro Tools simply heandle spreading the core load much better?
I still hope someone can help me with this as I belive in the power of reaper :O
Or an HDX system...?
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Old 01-24-2022, 06:02 PM   #12
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That looks weird. What are your settings in Audio/Buffer?
I assume you have an 8 core Intel based machine?
Thanks for your reply mlprod. You find a screenshot of my Audio Buffer settings in the attached .zip file in the original post opening up this thread.


Auto-detect the number of needed audio processing threads: unchecked

Audio reading/processing threads = 16
Thread priority = Time Critical
Behavior= automatic
Media Buffer size = 1200, prebuffer = 100%
Disable media buffering for tracks with open midi editor: checked
Disable media buffering for tracks that are selected: unchecked
Medoia buffer when per-take FX open = 200

Anticipative FX: checked
Render ahead = 200
Allow on thracks without FX:checked
Allow on tracks with open MIDI: unchecked
Allow live FX multiprocessing on = 4
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Old 01-24-2022, 06:07 PM   #13
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Or an HDX system...?
no HDX system, very similar plugins to what I use in reaper. Mainly thirdparty, barely Pro-Tools internal Plugins.

for example
-plugin alliance
-fabfilter
-UAD
-Softube
-izotope
-baby audio
-macDSP
-waves
-valhalla
-antares
-kush audio
-sonnox
-soundtoys
-leapwing
etc.
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Old 01-24-2022, 06:12 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by jannikthary View Post
https://youtu.be/80L7ETPSobE
I checked this with several Mixing Projects. It seems like every second core is barely stressed or even not really used at all while the other half is struggling being almost overloaded. Does it make sense that this unstable power spred might be causing dropouts?
Just want to mention I noticed this is also the case when rendering. Every second core is heavy used, while the other half is barely beeing stressed.
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Old 01-25-2022, 12:01 PM   #15
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Hmm ok, I don't think I can help. Maybe try turning "Auto-detect the number of needed audio processing threads" ON instead.
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Old 01-25-2022, 02:17 PM   #16
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Well there are many things you can try but they are sometimes "personal"—meaning not everything may make a difference on your particular system.

I presume you maxed out the buffer size in the Device menu to whatever your interface will allow. I use 2048 or 4096 with mine, anything higher doesn't make a difference.

In the Buffering menu I use Highest/Aggressive and 1600ms render-ahead.

It's also a good idea to close all other apps, especially those like Outlook that kick into action from time to time.

In terms of both CPU and latency(PDC) Reaper doesn't "like" any outliers, so check the Performance Meter to make sure everything is spread as evenly as possible. I split my vocal chain into 10 tracks if that's any help, same with the mix buss. This way you'll also see more of those "lazy" cores being used.

Speaking of which, if after all those optimisations your mix still doesn't run, it's time to investigate outside solutions like AudioGridder and jBridge. They can touch parts of the CPU that Reaper can't and will give you a big boost in performance once set up right.

All of this is painful, but necessary. From what I know, Reaper is the best DAW around when it comes to running big mixes, but it still needs to be tweaked and possibly augmented if you don't have a powerful computer with 16 cores or more. Even then there can be bottlenecks which my above suggestions can help with.
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Old 02-15-2022, 05:05 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by mlprod View Post
Hmm ok, I don't think I can help. Maybe try turning "Auto-detect the number of needed audio processing threads" ON instead.
I tried this whithout any noticable difference unfortunatly. I'm not supposed to restart Reaper to make sure changes apply, am I?
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Old 02-21-2022, 12:57 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Uncovered Pitch View Post
Well there are many things you can try but they are sometimes "personal"—meaning not everything may make a difference on your particular system.

I presume you maxed out the buffer size in the Device menu to whatever your interface will allow. I use 2048 or 4096 with mine, anything higher doesn't make a difference.

In the Buffering menu I use Highest/Aggressive and 1600ms render-ahead.

It's also a good idea to close all other apps, especially those like Outlook that kick into action from time to time.

In terms of both CPU and latency(PDC) Reaper doesn't "like" any outliers, so check the Performance Meter to make sure everything is spread as evenly as possible. I split my vocal chain into 10 tracks if that's any help, same with the mix buss. This way you'll also see more of those "lazy" cores being used.

Speaking of which, if after all those optimisations your mix still doesn't run, it's time to investigate outside solutions like AudioGridder and jBridge. They can touch parts of the CPU that Reaper can't and will give you a big boost in performance once set up right.

All of this is painful, but necessary. From what I know, Reaper is the best DAW around when it comes to running big mixes, but it still needs to be tweaked and possibly augmented if you don't have a powerful computer with 16 cores or more. Even then there can be bottlenecks which my above suggestions can help with.
Thanks for your suggestions.
I maxed out buffer size to 2048, as well as I tried out 512, 256 and 1024, without experiencing any noticable difference.

I did split the vocal chain alread and will try to split it even more - so far the dropouts still appear without any noticable difference unfortunatly.
Do you reccomend to insert another channal in the chain for each PDC heavy Plugin like Ozone etc.?
Does the number of plugins itself per Track in your oppinion make a difference or is it all about CPU and PDC values?
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