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Old 02-15-2020, 05:21 PM   #1
NotChuckNorris
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Default Looking for an 8-channel control surface (Artist Mix, Icon M+)

I am currently using a Faderport 1, which works very good, but I would like to have eight faders in a small footprint. The Icon M+ looks very good, but I am a little concerned about quality. The most important factor for me is fader quality and at this point I would be willing to drop the 1k Avid asks for the Artist Mix (despite of the lack of transport control).
So I looked around and found out that it is not as easy as one would think (of course). I found some Youtube videos where it seems to work, some threads here in the forum where it kind of works, or doesn't work or may work in the future... I am completely lost. Then there is this 120 pages CSI thread that started a gazillion years ago and just confuses me even more.

I am looking for the bare minimum: high quality faders, solo, mute, automation mode control and the name display should be functioning. Transport control would be optimal as well as a button for the mix window. I ruled out Faderport 8 (size) and X-Touch (size, plastic fantastic). Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
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Old 02-16-2020, 12:22 AM   #2
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WHOA, major idea: I could keep the Faderport for Transport and use it in conjunction with the Artist Mix. Would that be possible would they somehow get in the way of each other?
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Old 02-16-2020, 03:46 AM   #3
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WHOA, major idea: I could keep the Faderport for Transport and use it in conjunction with the Artist Mix. Would that be possible would they somehow get in the way of each other?
In theory, this combination should work.

Comparable to a controller + extender.

Don´t know how Reaper interacts with the ArtistMix though.

I guess CSI (on page 166 now), is, although confusing at the present state of its development, your best bet; CSI approaches beta-state and the pre-made protocols, for instance concerning MCU, are already giving good function.
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Old 02-16-2020, 06:02 AM   #4
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Thanks!
I would just try it out, but the ArtistMix is a little expensive for that. I could get a really good used one right now and am extremely tempted to simply take it, but I want to make sure that it will at least give me the core functionality.
Did someone make it work? What are the downsides?
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Old 02-16-2020, 06:02 AM   #5
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WHOA, major idea: I could keep the Faderport for Transport and use it in conjunction with the Artist Mix. Would that be possible would they somehow get in the way of each other?
They won't get in the way, I currently use CSI with this setup here:

2 x Artist Mix -- EuCon protocol
1 x Softube Console 1 -- Midi protocol
1 x Novation Launchpad mini MK3 with RGB support -- Midi protocol
1 x iPhone -- OSC protocol
1 x iPad -- OSC protocol

That's what CSI is all about -- integrating control surfaces
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Old 02-16-2020, 06:05 AM   #6
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Thanks!
I would just try it out, but the ArtistMix is a little expensive for that. I could get a really good used one right now and am extremely tempted to simply take it, but I want to make sure that it will at least give me the core functionality.
Did someone make it work? What are the downsides?
They were out of production as of Oct 31, 2019, end of life is 2024, so a good used one is the way to go
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Old 02-16-2020, 06:13 AM   #7
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Oh, very cool Geoff!
Does everything work (incl. the display and metering)? And most importantly: do the faders behave like they’re supposed to, or are they slow/jittery?
Last question: is a Reaper update likely to break the functionality, as I understand this is all not „official“?
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Old 02-16-2020, 06:28 AM   #8
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Oh, very cool Geoff!
Does everything work (incl. the display and metering)? And most importantly: do the faders behave like they’re supposed to, or are they slow/jittery?
Last question: is a Reaper update likely to break the functionality, as I understand this is all not „official“?
The CSI EuCon support is a work in progress (about 2 months young) -- faders, displays all work, as do Pan/PanWidth, Sends and FX are next up on the list.

Here's a demo from a couple of years back with the Artists in Mackie Mode, it's as fast or faster with EuCon mode

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ravhFzHcYKI&t=19s

Here's one from last summer but (without the Launchpad):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byqW...ature=youtu.be
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Old 02-16-2020, 06:39 AM   #9
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I have the feeling you like controllers! Thanks so much, I will get the ArtistMix! Then I‘ll annoy you about installing CSI
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Old 02-18-2020, 03:20 AM   #10
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I will get the ArtistMix today after work. YES!
I already installed CSI and had a look around. In the setup video there is already an ArtistMix mst in the surfaces folder. The current version doesn’t include that, can I get it somewhere? And do I actually have to install anything from Avid (like their Eucon driver) or is CSI the only thing I need?

EXCITEMENT

Edit: I see! I’ll probably have to add it as EuConSurface.

Last edited by NotChuckNorris; 02-18-2020 at 03:33 AM. Reason: No patience
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Old 02-18-2020, 03:36 AM   #11
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I will get the ArtistMix today after work. YES!
I already installed CSI and had a look around. In the setup video there is already an ArtistMix mst in the surfaces folder. The current version doesn’t include that, can I get it somewhere? And do I actually have to install anything from Avid (like their Eucon driver) or is CSI the only thing I need?

EXCITEMENT
1) You must add the eucon dll/dylib to the same location as the CSI dll/dylib.

2) You don't need an .mst anymore, just set it up as a EuCon in CSI -- AND THEN -- install eucon in general control surfaces panel.

Haha cross post edit -- yes you are right.
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Old 02-18-2020, 03:58 AM   #12
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1) You must add the eucon dll/dylib to the same location as the CSI dll/dylib.
Just to be clear (sorry for being dumb, trying to wrap my head around this): I install Avids Eucon driver, I add your Eucon dll to the CSI folder, I create the Eucon Surface, I add the Eucon surface to surface prefs?

Can the Faderport just stay as is, or do I have to assign Midi channels or anything like that?
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Old 02-18-2020, 05:12 AM   #13
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Just to be clear (sorry for being dumb, trying to wrap my head around this): I install Avids Eucon driver, I add your Eucon dll to the CSI folder, I create the Eucon Surface, I add the Eucon surface to surface prefs?
Install EuControl.

Make sure your surface shows up in EuControl.

You have already installed base CSI, so you're good to go there

Add the reaper_csurf_EuCon dll to the same location as the reaper_csurf_integrator dll.

Go to Control Surface Integrator panel and add a EuCon -- the defaults are fine for now.

Go back to the Control/OSC/Web select and add EuCon.


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Can the Faderport just stay as is, or do I have to assign Midi channels or anything like that?
You should be able to leave the Faderport alone.
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Old 02-18-2020, 02:55 PM   #14
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Install EuControl.

Make sure your surface shows up in EuControl.

You have already installed base CSI, so you're good to go there

Add the reaper_csurf_EuCon dll to the same location as the reaper_csurf_integrator dll.

Go to Control Surface Integrator panel and add a EuCon -- the defaults are fine for now.

Go back to the Control/OSC/Web select and add EuCon.
It seemed to work at first, but as soon as I drag and dropped some audio files in to Reaper I can the surface only sees 8 tracks. The bank buttons do nothing. When I select some tracks with the mouse the surface sees them but looses the tracks before the selected one. I hope can get it to work as THIS. IS. AWESOOOME!
Oh it also won’t adjust the fader level to the actual level of some tracks, but not all. Hmm...

Last edited by NotChuckNorris; 02-18-2020 at 02:56 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 02-18-2020, 03:43 PM   #15
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It seemed to work at first, but as soon as I drag and dropped some audio files in to Reaper I can the surface only sees 8 tracks. The bank buttons do nothing. When I select some tracks with the mouse the surface sees them but looses the tracks before the selected one. I hope can get it to work as THIS. IS. AWESOOOME!
Oh it also won’t adjust the fader level to the actual level of some tracks, but not all. Hmm...
You will want to use the bank buttons on the Faderport, not the ones on the Mix.

Sounds like the config is a bit off, please post the contents of your CSI.ini file.
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Old 02-18-2020, 04:05 PM   #16
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CSI.ini looks like this:

Code:
Page "HomePage" FollowMCP NoSynchPages UseScrollLink NoTrackColoring { 39 255 45 }
EuConSurface "EuCon" 1 8 "EuCon" NoZoneLink 8 16 0
Metering is also not working (although that's the least of the problems)
Banking with the Faderport does nothing to the ArtistMix
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Old 02-18-2020, 04:47 PM   #17
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CSI.ini looks like this:

Code:
Page "HomePage" FollowMCP NoSynchPages UseScrollLink NoTrackColoring { 39 255 45 }
EuConSurface "EuCon" 1 8 "EuCon" NoZoneLink 8 16 0
Metering is also not working (although that's the least of the problems)
Banking with the Faderport does nothing to the ArtistMix
The Faderport must be installed through CSl, not the regular way, you should see both the EuCon AND the Faderport in CSI.ini.
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Old 02-18-2020, 11:45 PM   #18
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I removed the Faderport and webremote completely, so the only entries are CSI and Eucon. No change. :/
The ArtistMix also won’t recognize the tracks that open with my template. It shows the names but faders stay down. I have to move the level with the mouse, then the AM fader moves into position. Still it only sees channels in buckets of 8. Do I have the CLA Mixhub edition? :P
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Old 02-19-2020, 03:55 AM   #19
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I removed the Faderport and webremote completely, so the only entries are CSI and Eucon. No change. :/
The ArtistMix also won’t recognize the tracks that open with my template. It shows the names but faders stay down. I have to move the level with the mouse, then the AM fader moves into position. Still it only sees channels in buckets of 8. Do I have the CLA Mixhub edition? :P
First off, my bad on the Faderport, it's not in the build.

The fader initialization is a known bug, along with Sends (Auxes) not working yet .

As a workaround for the fader issue, don't open Reaper directly, open your projects by double clicking the .rpp file, the faders work normally then.

On the Faderport, I'd say you're now in good shape, time to join the main thread and ask for a Faderport set of files -- they're a great bunch of folks and will get you going pronto
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Old 02-19-2020, 07:56 AM   #20
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First off, my bad on the Faderport, it's not in the build.

The fader initialization is a known bug, along with Sends (Auxes) not working yet .

As a workaround for the fader issue, don't open Reaper directly, open your projects by double clicking the .rpp file, the faders work normally then.

On the Faderport, I'd say you're now in good shape, time to join the main thread and ask for a Faderport set of files -- they're a great bunch of folks and will get you going pronto
Unfortunately double clicking the project file has no effect. I made a quick video with my phone (sorry, it's handheld) to show you what's happening:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xH...FpjaHJ2xTnrJcu

The project was loaded by double clicking the .rpp file and is untouched when the video starts. The first seven channels are all at 0dB in Reaper. Funnily enough the fader for the first channel with audio on it is set correctly. But the Surface doesn't see any other channels and sadly is of no use at this state. I still have hope because in your videos yours seem to fly and work perfectly fine, so there has to be a solution
Maybe I should try Mackie protocol?

Edit: Maybe this is of any importance:

EuControl 20.1.0.50
ArtisMix Firmware 1.5.6.0
Reaper 6.03
CSI and your Eucon plugin are the latest versions

Edit 2: Just realized that Pan isn't working either. It shows up in the display but has no effect in Reaper and vice versa.
Edit 3: Only the L+R option doesn't work (which I have Reaper set to). Normal Pan and Pan + Width does work.

Last edited by NotChuckNorris; 02-19-2020 at 08:17 AM. Reason: Added info
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Old 02-19-2020, 08:59 AM   #21
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Unfortunately double clicking the project file has no effect. I made a quick video with my phone (sorry, it's handheld) to show you what's happening:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xH...FpjaHJ2xTnrJcu

The project was loaded by double clicking the .rpp file and is untouched when the video starts. The first seven channels are all at 0dB in Reaper. Funnily enough the fader for the first channel with audio on it is set correctly. But the Surface doesn't see any other channels and sadly is of no use at this state. I still have hope because in your videos yours seem to fly and work perfectly fine, so there has to be a solution

The issue is at exactly 0 db as you see, the track that has audio is not at 0 db.

In the video I see you using the Mix banking, that only banks internally, within the Mix itself -- as stated earlier, you will need to add the Faderport to control the banking.

For now there is another way -- you could go into CSI config and tell EuCon it has any number of Channels -- let's say you entered 64 Channels.

You could then use the Mix banking controls, try it, nothing will break


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Edit 2: Just realized that Pan isn't working either. It shows up in the display but has no effect in Reaper and vice versa.
Edit 3: Only the L+R option doesn't work (which I have Reaper set to). Normal Pan and Pan + Width does work.
Yes, only Pan and PanWidth are implemented, L R Pan is on the list.
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Old 02-19-2020, 09:22 AM   #22
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The issue is at exactly 0 db as you see, the track that has audio is not at 0 db.

In the video I see you using the Mix banking, that only banks internally, within the Mix itself -- as stated earlier, you will need to add the Faderport to control the banking.

For now there is another way -- you could go into CSI config and tell EuCon it has any number of Channels -- let's say you entered 64 Channels.

You could then use the Mix banking controls, try it, nothing will break


Yes, only Pan and PanWidth are implemented, L R Pan is on the list.
Okay, I think I am beginning to slowly start to start to understand
The AM "buffers" the number of channels set in the config, beginning from the selected channel.

Still trying to add metering in the Zone file, but I dont know how to "talk" to the meters, as there is no file with "widgets" inside. I guess it's coded into the Eucon file. Is there a reference to look up how Eucon "widgets" are called? I tried to add the TrackOutputMeter action to the Zone file and tried everyting like DisplayMeter|, OutputMeter|, InputMeter|, etc. Didn't find the correct string yet, glad I took the week off
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Old 02-19-2020, 10:17 AM   #23
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Okay, I think I am beginning to slowly start to start to understand
The AM "buffers" the number of channels set in the config, beginning from the selected channel.

Still trying to add metering in the Zone file, but I dont know how to "talk" to the meters, as there is no file with "widgets" inside. I guess it's coded into the Eucon file. Is there a reference to look up how Eucon "widgets" are called? I tried to add the TrackOutputMeter action to the Zone file and tried everyting like DisplayMeter|, OutputMeter|, InputMeter|, etc. Didn't find the correct string yet, glad I took the week off
I don't think we even did meters in the original one back in 2014.

I'll check into it.

As you are discovering, this is alpha software -- hopefully soon beta -- and as such still has lots left to do.
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Old 02-19-2020, 01:02 PM   #24
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I'm currently using the documentation of the unit to write an MST and Zone file. I'll post them immediately when they're done.
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Old 02-19-2020, 04:10 PM   #25
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For now there is another way -- you could go into CSI config and tell EuCon it has any number of Channels -- let's say you entered 64 Channels.

You could then use the Mix banking controls, try it, nothing will break
This works, are there any drawbacks? I could simply enter a high track count and be done with it.


I fooled around the whole day, looking for a way to get the meters running but basically achieving nothing because there is no Eucon documentation. I tried out Mackie Control mode which sees all tracks and doesn’t have the 0db problem, but the faders are offset and the displays aren’t used to it‘s full capabilities. Metering doesn’t work either, although I added the “VUMeter“ to the Channels in the MCU .zon file. All in all I would say it’s recognizable that Eucon is the AMs native „language“. I would love to help out but don’t know where to start.

After all that searching and failing I pulled some old files into Reaper and mixed a bit - no way I am going back to just one fader

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I'm currently using the documentation of the unit to write an MST and Zone file. I'll post them immediately when they're done.
Very cool! But I assume this will be Mackie Protocol? Do you have a MIDI reference of the unit? I wasn’t able to find any documentation of that sort, just the usual stuff. If you need to know how to professionally handle the little rubber feet and place it on a desk I‘m your man! B)

Last edited by NotChuckNorris; 02-19-2020 at 04:18 PM. Reason: Quoting
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Old 02-19-2020, 04:48 PM   #26
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This works, are there any drawbacks? I could simply enter a high track count and be done with it.
The only drawback is if you are trying to integrate other surfaces with channels -- banking would be pretty funky, but for just EuCon, set track count to anythng you like, although insanely high counts will start to chew resources unnecessarily.


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I fooled around the whole day, looking for a way to get the meters running but basically achieving nothing because there is no Eucon documentation. I tried out Mackie Control mode which sees all tracks and doesn’t have the 0db problem, but the faders are offset and the displays aren’t used to it‘s full capabilities. Metering doesn’t work either, although I added the “VUMeter“ to the Channels in the MCU .zon file. All in all I would say it’s recognizable that Eucon is the AMs native „language“. I would love to help out but don’t know where to start.

After all that searching and failing I pulled some old files into Reaper and mixed a bit - no way I am going back to just one fader


Meters aren't implemented yet, no sense trying to find them, they are not there
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Old 02-20-2020, 03:19 PM   #27
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Thanks so much for all the support!

Today I made a pact with the devil and downloaded a Pro Tools trial. I wanted to try it for a long time and what's a better reason than to see your 700€ control surface in full effect? And what can I say - it's awesome. I checked one Eucon box and that's it. Of course this is not suprising, as it is a damn expensive Avid controller. Faderport works perfectly fine as HUI device and I just installed Avid Control... O M G! Controller porn! I have to add that I'm an iPad fanatic and sold my MacBook over it, but my jaw hit the floor and stayed there.

I almost feel a little bad, as if I did something wrong, but being primarily a mixer maybe Pro Tools just suits me a little better. I'll see after the one month trial period if I buy into it, I am especially interested in performance differences. I am still rocking an i5 2500k stock with 8GB Ram and thought PT would flatout tell me to screw myself, but so far it runs very well.
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Old 03-08-2020, 10:50 AM   #28
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I can’t do it!
Pro Tools is really not that bad, but Avid has to be one of the most awful companies on this planet and I wouldn’t be surprised if they’d all meet in the morning to talk about how much they hate their damn customers...

Which basically brings me back to where I left off. Maybe I‘ll sell the Artist Mix, but I really don’t want to.
The most awesome thing I encountered is VCA spill. I select a VCA master on the iPad and the members appear on the faders of the Artist Mix. This is so fast and intuitive... is that in any way possible in Reaper? I don’t care about with which controller, I’ll buy it instantly! Any ideas?
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Old 03-08-2020, 10:57 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by NotChuckNorris View Post
I can’t do it!
Pro Tools is really not that bad, but Avid has to be one of the most awful companies on this planet and I wouldn’t be surprised if they’d all meet in the morning to talk about how much they hate their damn customers...

Which basically brings me back to where I left off. Maybe I‘ll sell the Artist Mix, but I really don’t want to.
The most awesome thing I encountered is VCA spill. I select a VCA master on the iPad and the members appear on the faders of the Artist Mix. This is so fast and intuitive... is that in any way possible in Reaper? I don’t care about with which controller, I’ll buy it instantly! Any ideas?
Reaper already has VCAs and Folders (Groups).

Those are on the CSI to-do features list
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Old 03-08-2020, 11:06 AM   #30
NotChuckNorris
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Reaper already has VCAs and Folders (Groups).

Those are on the CSI to-do features list
Of course I know that Reaper has VCAs and Folders (which are „almost there“ in PT ), I am using Reaper for probably over a decade now.
But I take it that it’s not possible to do that as of now, probably it can only be done with Eucon. Can Eucon be taught what a VCA in Reaper is? Because in PT you have a different track type for everything, which probably makes it pretty easy to make Eucon „see“ a VCA.
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Old 03-08-2020, 11:14 AM   #31
Geoff Waddington
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Can Eucon be taught what a VCA in Reaper is? Because in PT you have a different track type for everything, which probably makes it pretty easy to make Eucon „see“ a VCA.
I was just doing some research this morning into EuCon's Group concepts and how they could apply to Folders/VCAs, so it will definitely happen, sometime
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Old 03-18-2020, 07:14 AM   #32
TonE
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
They won't get in the way, I currently use CSI with this setup here:

2 x Artist Mix -- EuCon protocol
1 x Softube Console 1 -- Midi protocol
1 x Novation Launchpad mini MK3 with RGB support -- Midi protocol
1 x iPhone -- OSC protocol
1 x iPad -- OSC protocol

That's what CSI is all about -- integrating control surfaces
First CSI needs a manual, what it can do. I checked once, essential information were missing.

Which inputs are allowed and required?
Which outputs are allowed?
Inbetween there are a few file format definitions, but before diving in there one should know exactly about possible inputs and outputs. And these essential information I could not find.
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Old 03-18-2020, 07:57 AM   #33
Geoff Waddington
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Originally Posted by TonE View Post
First CSI needs a manual, what it can do. I checked once, essential information were missing.

Which inputs are allowed and required?
Which outputs are allowed?
Inbetween there are a few file format definitions, but before diving in there one should know exactly about possible inputs and outputs. And these essential information I could not find.
Have you looked at the wiki lately, it's improving all the time

https://github.com/malcolmgroves/reaper_csi/wiki
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