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Old 08-29-2019, 06:56 AM   #4321
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Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
This works! Although I'm still coming to terms with what it means for Zone definitions vis a vis Configurator.
YAY !!

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It would seem I have to add a Modifier+ definition to go with every existing unshifted definition in the child Zone. I can do that, but it would be nice to be able to declare it at the start of the ChildZone and have it apply to every definition within the Zone
Well, it's really a separate issue -- is this Zone intended to be activated under Shift conditions ?

Maybe you could just have checkboxes for Shift/Control/Option/Alt on the spreadsheet UI and autogenerate the required definitions from the standard ones.
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Old 08-29-2019, 07:03 AM   #4322
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Well, it's really a separate issue -- is this Zone intended to be activated under Shift conditions ?
If this means "the only way to access the Zone is via Shift+SomeButton GoZone TheZone" then yes.

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Maybe you could just have checkboxes for Shift/Control/Option/Alt on the spreadsheet UI and autogenerate the required definitions from the standard ones.
Absolutely it was just a rather lame attempt at slacking off (that seems to have failed)
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Old 08-29-2019, 07:14 AM   #4323
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If this means "the only way to access the Zone is via Shift+SomeButton GoZone TheZone" then yes.
More like "If you plan to access this Zone through modifiers, don't forget to provide the necessary modified definitions along with the standard ones".

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Absolutely it was just a rather lame attempt at slacking off (that seems to have failed)
Geez I hear ya', likewise, I keep failing at that task
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:04 AM   #4324
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Geoff, should IncludedZones work if the zones are in separate zone files?
I know it works if they're in the same file. But as you've stadted before, all zones are "loaded/logged" at reaper boot.
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:07 AM   #4325
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Geoff, should IncludedZones work if the zones are in separate zone files?
I know it works if they're in the same file. But as you've stadted before, all zones are "loaded/logged" at reaper boot.
They do work, just not with modifier definitions
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:20 AM   #4326
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They do work, just not with modifier definitions
So does that mean if a zone has the shift+ on all its definitions it will or won't WORK?

I'm thinking for the config... If we had a zone with shift+ defined "includedzone"d in the mainzone would it work.
If so then shift etc could be defined separately in their own zone files making the config... Less work for you and it.
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:24 AM   #4327
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So does that mean if a zone has the shift+ on all its definitions it will or won't WORK?

I'm thinking for the config... If we had a zone with shift+ defined "includedzone"d in the mainzone would it work.
If so then shift etc could be defined separately in their own zone files making the config... Less work for you and it.
No it doesn’t work Try it for yourself.
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:26 AM   #4328
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Geoff, should IncludedZones work if the zones are in separate zone files?
Yes.

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I know it works if they're in the same file. But as you've stadted before, all zones are "loaded/logged" at reaper boot.
Right, so all zone files are loaded, and you are good to go
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:28 AM   #4329
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They do work, just not with modifier definitions
Sorry to be pedantic, they work with modifier definitions as long as you have the modifier behaviour defined for every widget
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:31 AM   #4330
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Slightly off to the side of topic, but do you know if I can use my tablet to emulate the c4.

So I could test out theories while not at the studio?
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:35 AM   #4331
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So does that mean if a zone has the shift+ on all its definitions it will or won't WORK?
Yes, of course it will work, look at Channel, it has Shift and is an Included Zone.

This has nothing to do with the Zones themselves, but rather, how you access them.

Code:
Zone ParentZone
        Shift+someButton GoZone someZone
ZoneEnd
When you press Shift+someButton you activate someZone.

But notice you are activating someZone with Shift pressed.

Since the computer is way faster you can't have the Shift pressed just long enough to get someButton to do its thing, then magically release it part way through so the when the Zone itself tells all the Actions to activate it isn't Shifted anymore.

It's the Shift+someButton GoZone that's causing this.
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:39 AM   #4332
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Slightly off to the side of topic, but do you know if I can use my tablet to emulate the c4.

So I could test out theories while not at the studio?
Yup, you will need a TouchOSC panel that looks like the C4, an .ost that reflects the TouchOSC panel, and the usual Zone suspects.

I can walk you through this, it takes using the TouchOSC editor to make the OSC panels, it's kind of like @MixMonkey's spreadsheet.
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:49 AM   #4333
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Sorry to be pedantic, they work with modifier definitions as long as you have the modifier behaviour defined for every widget
Sorry, but I've tried exactly this and it doesn't work. What Freex is talking about is putting all the Shifted definitions in a separate Zone, in a separate file and then using IncludedZones in the ParentFile to load them so they can be activated when shift is pushed. This is a completely separate approach to the one we've just established works.

The reason we want to have the Shifted definitions in a separate Zone File is so they can be loaded, modified and saved independantly of the Parent Zone in the Configurator.
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:54 AM   #4334
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Hang on a sec, are you saying this would work as long as I included all the unshifted definitions along with the shifted ones in the separate Zone?
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:56 AM   #4335
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Yup, you will need a TouchOSC panel that looks like the C4, an .ost that reflects the TouchOSC panel, and the usual Zone suspects.

I can walk you through this, it takes using the TouchOSC editor to make the OSC panels, it's kind of like @MixMonkey's spreadsheet.
That would be awesome,ive touchosv on the tablet but no idea what to do to emate the c4.
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Sorry, but I've tried exactly this and it doesn't work. What Freex is talking about is putting all the Shifted definitions in a separate Zone, in a separate file and then using IncludedZones in the ParentFile to load them so they can be activated when shift is pushed. This is a completely separate approach to the one we've just established works.

The reason we want to have the Shifted definitions in a separate Zone File is so they can be loaded, modified and saved independantly of the Parent Zone in the Configurator.
Exactly what he said.
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:56 AM   #4336
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Sorry, but I've tried exactly this and it doesn't work. What Freex is talking about is putting all the Shifted definitions in a separate Zone, in a separate file and then using IncludedZones in the ParentFile to load them so they can be activated when shift is pushed. This is a completely separate approach to the one we've just established works.

The reason we want to have the Shifted definitions in a separate Zone File is so they can be loaded, modified and saved independantly of the Parent Zone in the Configurator.
Oops, my bad

Thought we were talking about the same thing.

Included Zones are always automatically activated when the Enclosing Zone is activated, there is no way to split that out.

I'm missing something, what are you trying to do here ?
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:01 AM   #4337
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I'm missing something, what are you trying to do here ?
Trying to separate out the Shifted definitions into their own Zone and disk file and have them activate from the ParentZone when Shift is pressed.
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:33 AM   #4338
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Trying to separate out the Shifted definitions into their own Zone and disk file and have them activate from the ParentZone when Shift is pressed.
OK still confused.

You could put
Code:
Zone Channel|1-8
	TrackNavigator
	DisplayUpper|  TrackNameDisplay
	DisplayLower|  TrackPanDisplay
	TrackTouch+DisplayLower|  TrackVolumeDisplay
	RotaryPush| GoZone PanWidth|
	Rotary| TrackPan 0
	RecordArm|  TrackRecordArm
	Solo|  TrackSolo
	Mute| TrackMute
	Select|  TrackUniqueSelect
	Shift+Select|  TrackRangeSelect
	Control+Select|  TrackSelect
	Shift+Control+Select| TogglePin
	Option+Select| TrackFolderDive
	Fader|  TrackVolume
	TrackTouch+Fader|  TrackVolume
	FaderTouch|  TrackTouch
ZoneEnd
in a separate file and

Code:
Shift+Select|  TrackRangeSelect
would still work.

So you must mean something different that that.

You can't not activate an Included Zone when the enclosing Zone is activated, so you must mean something different here too.

I'm just hopelessly lost, help me out
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:52 AM   #4339
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Hey Geoff,
I'm running into an issue here:
I'm noticing - in particular when I copy a plugin to another track - the parameters in the Console 1 plugin often do not match with the hardware until each knob is individually moved, "latching" things in place. Is there a setting somewhere in the midi or plugins settings I need to adjust to address this?
Geoff, I don't know if this helps or not, but here's a visual. Notice the Frequency parameters...

Attached Images
File Type: jpg fxparamnonequal.jpg (63.7 KB, 66 views)
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:53 AM   #4340
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
OK still confused.

You could put
Code:
Zone Channel|1-8
	TrackNavigator
	DisplayUpper|  TrackNameDisplay
	DisplayLower|  TrackPanDisplay
	TrackTouch+DisplayLower|  TrackVolumeDisplay
	RotaryPush| GoZone PanWidth|
	Rotary| TrackPan 0
	RecordArm|  TrackRecordArm
	Solo|  TrackSolo
	Mute| TrackMute
	Select|  TrackUniqueSelect
	Shift+Select|  TrackRangeSelect
	Control+Select|  TrackSelect
	Shift+Control+Select| TogglePin
	Option+Select| TrackFolderDive
	Fader|  TrackVolume
	TrackTouch+Fader|  TrackVolume
	FaderTouch|  TrackTouch
ZoneEnd
in a separate file and

Code:
Shift+Select|  TrackRangeSelect
would still work.

So you must mean something different that that.

You can't not activate an Included Zone when the enclosing Zone is activated, so you must mean something different here too.

I'm just hopelessly lost, help me out
First off, we’re only talking about FX Zones and their parameters here, if that makes a difference.

What we want to do is to have all the unshifted parameter definitions in one Zone and disk file, and all the Shifted parameter definitions in another Zone and disk file.

While the unshifted parameter Zone is active, we want to access the Shifted parameter Zone by pressing the Shift key.

We thought we could do this by using the IncludedZones construct to include the Shifted parameter Zone in the unshifted Zone(probably the ParentZone) but this doesn’t work.
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:07 AM   #4341
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First off, we’re only talking about FX Zones and their parameters here, if that makes a difference.

What we want to do is to have all the unshifted parameter definitions in one Zone and disk file, and all the Shifted parameter definitions in another Zone and disk file.

While the unshifted parameter Zone is active, we want to access the Shifted parameter Zone by pressing the Shift key.

We thought we could do this by using the IncludedZones construct to include the Shifted parameter Zone in the unshifted Zone(probably the ParentZone) but this doesn’t work.
This doesn't work if the Shifted parameter definitions all have Shift+ preceding the Widget name ?
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:09 AM   #4342
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This doesn't work if the Shifted parameter definitions all have Shift+ preceding the Widget name ?
Nope, but the same Shifted definitions work fine if added to the unshifted Zone.
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:10 AM   #4343
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Geoff, I don't know if this helps or not, but here's a visual. Notice the Frequency parameters...

What happens if you re-select/re-focus, does that fix it ?
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:12 AM   #4344
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Nope, but the same Shifted definitions work fine if added to the unshifted Zone.
Ah, OK I'm going to call that a bug and see if it really is, or worse, a design limitation.

Thought we finally had the architecture right

So much for slacking off
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:12 AM   #4345
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Nope, but the same Shifted definitions work fine if added to the unshifted Zone.
So does that mean it's a bug or a limitation?
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:21 AM   #4346
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So does that mean it's a bug or a limitation?
I’d say a limitation, but not a very severe one, as it only affects a 3rd party product ( The Configurator)

You can still add Shifted definitions to the Zone by hand
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:23 AM   #4347
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What happens if you re-select/re-focus, does that fix it ?
I'm afraid it doesn't. Each parameter has to be re-linked with an adjustment manually.

edit: interestingly, even loading a new patch doesn't fix it. It's like none of the parameters will actually begin to stick until they have been physically moved at some point, after which they continue to function as expected. So loading presets and copying fx are where the issue arises.

Last edited by Mr. Green; 08-29-2019 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:23 AM   #4348
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Modifiers are a special case, a law unto themselves. Witness how they act across all surfaces with modifier definitions, regardless of the ZoneLink setting
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:30 AM   #4349
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Modifiers are a special case, a law unto themselves. Witness how they act across all surfaces with modifier definitions, regardless of the ZoneLink setting
True, they are a special case unto themselves

However the modifiers act on a per Page basis by design, we could make them act on a per surface basis.

However when we discussed it way back when, we decided since they already had potential for confusion, not to make them on a per surface basis.

We could change that if there is a valid use case...

We have to watch out adding complexity though...
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:31 AM   #4350
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Originally Posted by Mr. Green View Post
I'm afraid it doesn't. Each parameter has to be re-linked with an adjustment manually.

edit: interestingly, even loading a new patch doesn't fix it. It's like none of the parameters will actually begin to stick until they have been physically moved at some point, after which they continue to function as expected. So loading presets and copying fx are where the issue arises.
Thanks, will look into it.
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:36 AM   #4351
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
True, they are a special case unto themselves

However the modifiers act on a per Page basis by design, we could make them act on a per surface basis.

However when we discussed it way back when, we decided since they already had potential for confusion, not to make them on a per surface basis.

We could change that if there is a valid use case...

We have to watch out adding complexity though...
Even if they were per surface (and I don’t think they should be, or latched for that matter) I don’t think it would make any difference to the matter under discussion. Let’s stay as we are.
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:41 AM   #4352
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Even if they were per surface (and I don’t think they should be, or latched for that matter) I don’t think it would make any difference to the matter under discussion. Let’s stay as we are.
Cool, fair enough.

BTW wanted to give a big shout out to you from me and the rest of the community for taking on the UI task, I knew there was a reason why I wanted to keep it to simple text files , thanks for all the hard work, and remember, even if you can't build the perfect UI, anything that generates the majority of params is very helpful
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:49 AM   #4353
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Cool, should point out that you should uninstall the stock Reaper setup, I'm pretty sure you already knew that
Hi Geoff, what does it mean and how to uninstall the stock Reaper setup? Thank you!
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:51 AM   #4354
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Hi Geoff, what does it mean and how to uninstall the stock Reaper setup? Thank you!
Just remove the MCU and MCUXT you set up in the main Reaper config panel.

Then add CSI, and set up the surfaces in the CSI config panel.
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Old 08-29-2019, 11:09 AM   #4355
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Cool, fair enough.

BTW wanted to give a big shout out to you from me and the rest of the community for taking on the UI task, I knew there was a reason why I wanted to keep it to simple text files , thanks for all the hard work, and remember, even if you can't build the perfect UI, anything that generates the majority of params is very helpful
You're very welcome Happy to contribute to this great project (from which I am benefitting massively)

Now that we've established how to make Modifier+SomeButton GoZone SomeFXZone work properly, I can get that written into the Configurator and see where we go from there,
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Old 08-29-2019, 11:30 AM   #4356
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Geoff, if you don't mind me asking, how difficult would it be to make CSI available as a MIDI device in Reaper?
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Old 08-29-2019, 01:10 PM   #4357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
I can walk you through this, it takes using the TouchOSC editor to make the OSC panels, it's kind of like @MixMonkey's spreadsheet.
OK so I have Touch OSC Editor installed on PC, and I made a layout to match the C4, I was able to sync and send the C4 layout to the Tablet, so the setup end i have, but I guess there is some "other very important" stuff I need to do or add to make it work.
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Old 08-29-2019, 01:37 PM   #4358
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Originally Posted by Mr. Green View Post
Geoff, if you don't mind me asking, how difficult would it be to make CSI available as a MIDI device in Reaper?
As far as I know you can't use any device (surface, keyboard, etc.) in both at the same time, not just CSI, any of them, unless it has changed recently
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Old 08-29-2019, 02:00 PM   #4359
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Originally Posted by Freex View Post
OK so I have Touch OSC Editor installed on PC, and I made a layout to match the C4, I was able to sync and send the C4 layout to the Tablet, so the setup end i have, but I guess there is some "other very important" stuff I need to do or add to make it work.
WOW, you got there quickly !

In order for Reaper to cause the OSC surface to go to the right page, it must be named explicitly and EXACTLY -- it's the equivalent of the FX name in the .zon file -- it must be exact.

So, since spaces are disallowed, you end up with the same as the filename, a pretty ugly thing.

Now, think url.

You will see things like

Code:
Widget Home/ShowFXWindows
	Control /Home/ShowFXWindows
	FB_Processor /Home/ShowFXWindows
WidgetEnd

Widget VST__UAD_Ampeg_SVTVR_Classic__Universal_Audio__Inc__/Input
	Control /VST__UAD_Ampeg_SVTVR_Classic__Universal_Audio__Inc__/Input
	FB_Processor /VST__UAD_Ampeg_SVTVR_Classic__Universal_Audio__Inc__/Input
WidgetEnd

Zone Home
	OnTrackSelection MapSelectedTrackFXToWidgets
	Home/ShowFXWindows SetShowFXWindows
ZoneEnd

Zone "VST: UAD Lexicon 224 (Universal Audio, Inc.)"
	SelectedTrackNavigator
	VST__UAD_Lexicon_224__Universal_Audio__Inc__/Program FXParam 0
	VST__UAD_Lexicon_224__Universal_Audio__Inc__/Bass FXParam 1
	VST__UAD_Lexicon_224__Universal_Audio__Inc__/Mid FXParam 2
	VST__UAD_Lexicon_224__Universal_Audio__Inc__/Crossover FXParam 3
	VST__UAD_Lexicon_224__Universal_Audio__Inc__/Treble_Decay FXParam 4
	VST__UAD_Lexicon_224__Universal_Audio__Inc__/Depth FXParam 5
	Toggle+VST__UAD_Lexicon_224__Universal_Audio__Inc__/Rear_Outs FXParam 10
	Toggle+VST__UAD_Lexicon_224__Universal_Audio__Inc__/Mode_Enh FXParam 13
	Toggle+VST__UAD_Lexicon_224__Universal_Audio__Inc__/Decay_Opt FXParam 16
	Toggle+VST__UAD_Lexicon_224__Universal_Audio__Inc__/Wet_Solo FXParam 12
ZoneEnd
Looks a bit intimidating, but if you treat the part before the slash as a url, most of which you ignore, you see the actual familiar structure -- Program FXParam 0, etc.

OK, now use the editor to load the .touchosc layouts in CSI/Touch OSC Layouts

Now take a look at CSI/Surfaces/OSC/TouchOSC.ost

See how the names cross-reference.

OK last part, take a look at CSI/Zones/TouchOSCPad.zon and CSI/Zones/TouchOSCPhone.zon, see how this works ?

It's really the same as Midi, just a little bent -- you end up with a larger .ost file as compared to Midi, and you also need to make pages for the OSC device.


Yours will look a lot simpler for the C4 screen

Code:
Widget Home/RotaryD1
	Control /Home/RotaryD1
	FB_Processor /Home/RotaryD1
WidgetEnd

Zone Home
	Home/RotaryD1 someAction
ZoneEnd
Let me know how it goes.
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Last edited by Geoff Waddington; 08-29-2019 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 08-29-2019, 02:11 PM   #4360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
As far as I know you can't use any device (surface, keyboard, etc.) in both at the same time, not just CSI, any of them, unless it has changed recently
That seems very odd to me, especially given that the majority of these controllers are *literally* MIDI devices.

Do you know of any way its controls can be intercepted for remapping within Reaper?

And honestly, the reason I am asking is because there is already a fantastic MIDI to FXParameter linking system (LBX Smart Knobs) available NOW in Reaper - complete with an easy to use, polished GUI, and a simple, on-the-fly way to link parameters and keep them saved for global use. It reminds me a bit of Studio One's implementation of that, which is a good thing.

What it DOESN'T do, however, is offer the means of creating complex user layouts, design, and customization of the hardware itself - which is the crowning achievement here at the CSI project.

It's like you each have managed to cover opposite sides of an equally challenging spectrum (well, maybe not totally "equally", but you get my point).

...and it's KILLING me that the two are unable to communicate with each other! :-(
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