Old 07-16-2019, 10:35 AM   #41
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Yes, I'm aware of the method that's employed. I'm saying it's not good enough, not obvious enough. It takes EFFORT to chase down these white lines.
Yep, you're right!
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:36 AM   #42
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That is not a foregone conclusion - I am a yes, so is Kenny and I take it you are too?
Me too, I LOVE that A B C thing in the script
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:40 AM   #43
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I can't tell what's selected and not in many of my projects, small and large. Could anyone make out what track's selected here at a glance? I can't. Same goes for item selection, even though that's a bit better perhaps.



To be able to quickly spot, at a glance, without turning all mental focus to the screen, which tracks are selected or not is, in my opinion, absolutely paramount. No design decisions can be allowed to take priority over this. Track selection is absolutely crucial information.

This really needs to be fixed I think, before the final release. I have my preference on how this would be done - simply don't color the whole panel. Leave a colored strip next to name & arrange window, and then choose, very deliberatly, 2 shades of gray that clearly and unambiguosly communicates to the operator which tracks are chosen and which are not, for the rest of the panel. But I understand that for reasons this will very likely not happen. Still has to be fixed though.
This is huge. I really think this sort of thing is of utmost importance. Its hard enough to tell whats what on the TCP, the items to me get a lot worse. Its a hard balance for the theme designers as we have

unselected items
selected items
unselected items in time selection area
selected items in time selection area

I would really love to see some sort of inversion function for colors like grid and item background
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:55 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by poplomop
"Half of the transport disappears when I click "Show playrate control". And no playrate control shows."

I've no ideal what that might be, could you post a screenshot please?
Yep thanks. win7 v5.980+dev0713
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:00 AM   #45
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Me too, I LOVE that A B C thing in the script

me too.
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:09 AM   #46
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Now; I know what you're about to say But my job is not "do thing, and then make a feature request to make it not look wrong" its "do things as well as possible making as few feature requests as possible". So the first question is, assuming that, is the occasional fluffed border tolerable at this level of brightness?
Sorry, I’m not sure if I understand. Are you saying the missing borders at item start and end are intentional?

I know there’s a lot of info in this thread, but please have a look at the mentioned zoom issue.
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:34 PM   #47
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That is not a foregone conclusion - I am a yes, so is Kenny and I take it you are too?
Yes, definitely yes.
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:58 PM   #48
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regarding borders round items and tracks.

We do have an option (now moved to theme area) for having a coloured line on selected items at the top.

Maybe it's better then if a few of us beg Justin/Schwa to extend these options to give us the option of making this any or all sides and for both tracks and items and any thickness and colour.

Surely that would go a long way to solving this? as I know White Tie can't really give us that without breaking other things.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:03 PM   #49
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No feature requests in this thread please folks.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:11 PM   #50
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Not sure if I'm understanding you; give it a bit of this?
I mean like this:


[That's showing up a bit bigger that I expected. Is there a way to scale it down a bit without reuploading?]

I'm talking about the space above the fx and routing buttons that the automation, pan and width could fit into.

Also, this might be a known issue as I've only skimmed the other posts here, but in the mcp, the "if track not selected" technically works, as it does apply to all unselected tracks, but when you select a track, it doesn't return to normal. Either that's unintended behaviour, or it's intended but the labelling isn't clear/accurate.

[By the way, I'm really liking the v5 session mixer design that's being carried over into the v6 theme! It's just a shame that I rarely use the mcp when working...]
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:16 PM   #51
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That would make it stand out less as a dynamic action; less would change, particularly with the full-strength custom colours.
Gotcha. Designing with the whole dynamic range of color options seems like an impossible / winless task... A bunch of full strength colors hurt my eyeballs (the equivalent of all caps). B)

Regarding the v6 layouts / script

Could it be understood that the ABC layouts and 3 resolution options in the REAPER options menu just be seen as default starting points (or for someone who doesn’t want to use the script) and give the script the full authority to override / change those (ABC layouts and 3 resolution options) along with anything else available via the script?

Maybe, include a note in the script saying as much...

It’s seems like it would be a missed opportunity... To hamstring the script and make a user go multiple places to make changes.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:54 PM   #52
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Sorry, I’m not sure if I understand. Are you saying the missing borders at item start and end are intentional?

I know there’s a lot of info in this thread, but please have a look at the mentioned zoom issue.
I'm getting a line around the whole item when selected, and a bleaching out of the item colour. It makes selection pretty easy to detect to my eye. Like the item is encapsulated. Many small items edits look ok too.

Track selection is less clear given the whole panel in the TCP is coloured to the track colour. I'm not sure why the option to tint track panel backgrounds is greyed out in the preferences..
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:02 PM   #53
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No feature requests in this thread please folks.
Agreed.. I was thinking about a normal FR and not here. I realise you can't fix this your end.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:21 PM   #54
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I can't tell what's selected and not in many of my projects, small and large. Could anyone make out what track's selected here at a glance? I can't. Same goes for item selection, even though that's a bit better perhaps.



To be able to quickly spot, at a glance, without turning all mental focus to the screen, which tracks are selected or not is, in my opinion, absolutely paramount. No design decisions can be allowed to take priority over this. Track selection is absolutely crucial information.

This really needs to be fixed I think, before the final release. I have my preference on how this would be done - simply don't color the whole panel. Leave a colored strip next to name & arrange window, and then choose, very deliberatly, 2 shades of gray that clearly and unambiguosly communicates to the operator which tracks are chosen and which are not, for the rest of the panel. But I understand that for reasons this will very likely not happen. Still has to be fixed though.
Agree 100%, selections (and text!) needs to be VERY easy to spot, otherwise the useablility goes out the drain.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:27 PM   #55
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That's not a bug, its just icon I came up with to represent 'play state as text'. Please let me know if you can think of a better one
Hi White Tie,

Maybe use only [ ] or a small 'Play Icon' between the keys. Because the text in front of the icon is already enlightening! What do you think?

PS: in my country this symbol '[ ]' is called keys.

Congratulations on a great job!

Edison

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Old 07-16-2019, 09:30 PM   #56
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Mute item should not be too dim, in practice, all item information should be clear and clear.
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Old 07-17-2019, 05:05 AM   #57
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Hi White Tie,

Two things have struck me:

1.If I use the trackgain, this will change its appearance. it is a bit strange.
Itemgain unused.JPG
Itemgain used.JPG

2. when expanding the tcp width, the text shifts.
track text aligned.JPG
Track Text not aligned.JPG
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Old 07-17-2019, 10:48 PM   #58
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This might have been mentioned before, but I didn't see it being mentioned:

For a particular track, change the number of track channels from 2 to a higher number (something that would noticeably increase the width of the MCP for the track). The MCP is cropped awkwardly until closing/opening the mixer again (at which point the MCP is widened and uncropped). It's more noticeable with "meter expansion" enabled since the MCP becomes a lot wider with more channels added.

Also if a track's MCP is wider due to having more channels, then you reduce the number of channels noticeably, it leaves some "blank panel space" (looks like a thick border on one side) until you close/open the mixer.

Something similar happens when allowing an MCP layout to automatically become a sidebar when selected (or not). The MCP will widen ok to become a sidebar type, but upon reverting to "standard" non-sidebar, there's extra "blank space" until the mixer is closed/opened again.

I'm using version 1.11 of the alpha theme, and Reaper for Linux x86-64 (v5.980+dev0717a). If you can't reproduce I can record a video (I can reproduce this consistently.)

Also there's this little thing I just noticed (see attached). That square appears when "element labels" is unchecked, and adding more track channels than 2. It's larger when you have more track channels (for this example it was 16, I think).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg wut.jpg (11.4 KB, 145 views)
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Old 07-18-2019, 04:36 AM   #59
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so there is still a change that minimal mixer will be added?

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....80#post2077380

please please please
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Old 07-18-2019, 06:32 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by poplomop View Post
Yep thanks. win7 v5.980+dev0713
Riiight, okay, I'll need to take another look at that, thanks. I have added the ability to make the play rate control really wide, so its pushing that section to a second line ...which you won't see if you have it docked.

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Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
Sorry, I’m not sure if I understand. Are you saying the missing borders at item start and end are intentional?

I know there’s a lot of info in this thread, but please have a look at the mentioned zoom issue.
Missing borders in some circumstances aren't intentional, they're just something Reaper does. I usually take steps to disguise this, its one of the arguments for not doing the strong border selection thing I'm doing here.

I don't know what's going on with that zoom thing or how it could be theme related. Can I ask that you bring this up again if it persists once the theme is more mature and the HiDPI stuff is further along please?

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Originally Posted by JayJSE2 View Post
I mean like this:

I'm talking about the space above the fx and routing buttons that the automation, pan and width could fit into.

Also, this might be a known issue as I've only skimmed the other posts here, but in the mcp, the "if track not selected" technically works, as it does apply to all unselected tracks, but when you select a track, it doesn't return to normal. Either that's unintended behaviour, or it's intended but the labelling isn't clear/accurate.
That space is a by-product of you having both a very long track name field and a very long fader. I'd need to have elements rearrange themselves on the fly to fill that gap and ...eeek. I really don't want to go there.

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Originally Posted by +NRG View Post
Could it be understood that the ABC layouts and 3 resolution options in the REAPER options menu just be seen as default starting points (or for someone who doesn’t want to use the script) and give the script the full authority to override / change those (ABC layouts and 3 resolution options) along with anything else available via the script
I'm absolutely considering bringing the script layout assignment back. But you raise an interesting point about authority; the issue is that the script never does have full authority, never can have it, and that's sort-of the problem. It might sometimes do the wrong thing. While far from ideal, I think that might be worth it none the less.

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Originally Posted by Zeno View Post
Hi White Tie,

Two things have struck me:

1.If I use the trackgain, this will change its appearance. it is a bit strange.
2. when expanding the tcp width, the text shifts.
Yeah, its weird I know. I'm balancing contrasting requirements to a) make that volume control visually match the track volume controls, and b) some users are very eager for a strong differentiation between tracks that have a gain setting and those that don't.

I know I haven't got it right yet; I'll think more on it.

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Originally Posted by JamesPeters View Post
For a particular track, change the number of track channels from 2 to a higher number (something that would noticeably increase the width of the MCP for the track). The MCP is cropped awkwardly until closing/opening the mixer again (at which point the MCP is widened and uncropped). It's more noticeable with "meter expansion" enabled since the MCP becomes a lot wider with more channels added.

Also if a track's MCP is wider due to having more channels, then you reduce the number of channels noticeably, it leaves some "blank panel space" (looks like a thick border on one side) until you close/open the mixer.

Something similar happens when allowing an MCP layout to automatically become a sidebar when selected (or not). The MCP will widen ok to become a sidebar type, but upon reverting to "standard" non-sidebar, there's extra "blank space" until the mixer is closed/opened again.
These are all (I think) by-products of the new dynamic MCP width functionality that I'm using, which is new, untested, experimental and (I'm sad to say) might not even make it into the final release. These things will need to be brought to the attention of the devs, but first I'd like to iron out any funkiness that might be my fault, for example...

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Originally Posted by JamesPeters View Post
Also there's this little thing I just noticed (see attached). That square appears when "element labels" is unchecked, and adding more track channels than 2. It's larger when you have more track channels (for this example it was 16, I think).
Ooops. Thanks!
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Old 07-18-2019, 08:33 AM   #61
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That space is a by-product of you having both a very long track name field and a very long fader. I'd need to have elements rearrange themselves on the fly to fill that gap and ...eeek. I really don't want to go there.
Fair enough, but wouldn't it be possible to let the user (through the script) change the order of the elements? That layout (long name, long fader and as much else as possible on those two lines) is what I'd use for all tracks, so I wouldn't need things to rearrange themselves, only for me to be able to have more control over where things are.
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Old 07-19-2019, 08:59 AM   #62
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Great feedback folks, thank you. Please download the new theme version from the first post (script is unchanged in this update)

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Originally Posted by strachupl View Post
Fixed in 1.12, thanks!

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Originally Posted by poplomop View Post
Half of the transport disappears when I click "Show playrate control". And no playrate control shows. Presumably disappeared with the rest of the stuff haha.
Everyone please take a look at this : http://www.houseofwhitetie.com/reape...sport_flip.gif

...that is what's happening. Here are the options for how I could deal with this, and the reasons they aren't a perfect solution:
  1. I could limit the width of the rate fader if there's not enough room for it. This might make the user think that the rate adjustment in the script is broken, and is ignoring their preference. Someone might want a big-ass rate fader and no selection readouts, for example.
  2. I could skip elements to the next line progressively, rather than do it 'in halves'. This would look messier on an undocked transport, and doesn't solve the problem of "hey! where did my XXX go?"
  3. I could compress other things. Such as my pet peeve, the enormous position readout, needed for that minority of people making very very long projects while wanting Measures/Beats/Minutes/Seconds all showing at once.

Its a no-win choice. Fun, eh? Anyway, please advise...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPeters View Post
there's this little thing I just noticed (see attached). That square appears when "element labels" is unchecked, and adding more track channels than 2. It's larger when you have more track channels (for this example it was 16, I think).
Fixed in 1.12, thanks!

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Originally Posted by sievr View Post
so there is still a change that minimal mixer will be added?
No, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayJSE2 View Post
Fair enough, but wouldn't it be possible to let the user (through the script) change the order of the elements? That layout (long name, long fader and as much else as possible on those two lines) is what I'd use for all tracks, so I wouldn't need things to rearrange themselves, only for me to be able to have more control over where things are.
Yes, the user can change the order of elements, but sadly no - not through the script. This is due to a limitation in the way ReaScript and Themes interact. However, I have made it even easier than it was in V5 for someone with zero theming experience to do this simple mod. The theme has a section where the elements are just listed in order:

Code:
;    element        	size  		padding?
then tcp.recarm 	20 		0
then tcp.recmon 	15 		0
then tcp.label     tcp_LabelSize 	0
then tcp.volume     tcp_VolSize		0
then tcp.io 		34 		1
then fx_group 		36 		1
then tcp.env 		41 		1
then pan_group	   tcp_PanSize		1 
then tcp.recmode	39 		1
then input_group 	1
It just draws thing, then thing, then thing ...and so on. If you swap the order of lines, it swaps the order they are drawn in. And that's it.
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:19 AM   #63
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  1. I could limit the width of the rate fader if there's not enough room for it. This might make the user think that the rate adjustment in the script is broken, and is ignoring their preference. Someone might want a big-ass rate fader and no selection readouts, for example.
  2. I could skip elements to the next line progressively, rather than do it 'in halves'. This would look messier on an undocked transport, and doesn't solve the problem of "hey! where did my XXX go?"
  3. I could compress other things. Such as my pet peeve, the enormous position readout, needed for that minority of people making very very long projects while wanting Measures/Beats/Minutes/Seconds all showing at once.
First and third are find. Is it possible to not only limit the width, but change it to a knob if there is not enough space for it?
And could you please allow us to minimize the width of transport panel? It wastes space in this example:
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:34 AM   #64
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Is it possible to not only limit the width, but change it to a knob if there is not enough space for it?
Absolutely, it already does that automatically when the size is small.

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And could you please allow us to minimize the width of transport panel? It wastes space in this example:
Yes, will do.
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:46 AM   #65
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Absolutely, it already does that automatically when the size is small.
It wasn't for me, but now I can't get it back to a slider...
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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Yes, will do.
Thank you!
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Old 07-19-2019, 10:31 AM   #66
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I can't get it back to a slider...
Using the script isn't working?
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Old 07-19-2019, 10:54 AM   #67
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Using the script isn't working?
Oops, thanks! I've completely forgot about the script.
Still can't get a knob, if the script is set to non-knob values, like 80-310...
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Old 07-19-2019, 10:58 AM   #68
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Still can't get a knob, if the script is set to non-knob values, like 80-310...
<insert purile joke here>

Was that not what you expected? Were you expecting a knob and a bigger readout? I'm not sure how useful that would be.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:04 AM   #69
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<insert purile joke here>

Was that not what you expected? Were you expecting a knob and a bigger readout? I'm not sure how useful that would be.
Nope, nope. There were some elements (probably volume), which were converted to a knob, when a track had a small width/height. So I would expect it to be a knob, when transport panel is small rather than a tiiiiiny slider.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:08 AM   #70
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The reason I don't do an auto-expanding rate slider (I've tried that before) is that some users legitimately hate it as a weapon of accidental-click project destruction. So this 'set it by script' is the compromise.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:14 AM   #71
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The reason I don't do an auto-expanding rate slider (I've tried that before) is that some users legitimately hate it as a weapon of accidental-click project destruction. So this 'set it by script' is the compromise.
Ok, fair enough, thanks! Regarding your previous question I can repeat: limiting the width of rate slider and compressing other things would be the best option (I believe so). Skipping elements to the next line is a very irritating thing IMHO.
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Old 07-19-2019, 03:43 PM   #72
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However, I have made it even easier than it was in V5 for someone with zero theming experience to do this simple mod. The theme has a section where the elements are just listed in order:
Thanks! Setting that up right now... Although, another thought that has just occurred to me, when you set the tcp size (horizontally) to be really small, the track names display vertically. That would be a cool space-saving option to have in the script (although as it involves putting the track name before the record and input monitor buttons (or a least hiding them) I'm guessing it might also not be possible? In which case, where in the rtconfig would I be able to apply that permanently?)

Also, this is probably something that will be tidied up before the theme is finished, but it wasn't clear which (exact) part of the rtconfig to edit as there were multiple instances of that code:

Code:
 ; ---- BIG DECISION TO MAKE ----
; conditionally hide elelemnt in the default layout? Very big decision.
; cleaning away not immediatly necessary elements will make the entire interface more approachable and understandable.
; BUT users who have yet to discover layouts and/or the script might be disadvantaged in some circumstances.

set hide_tcp.recmon							!recarm 1 0 ; hide record monitor if track not armed
set hide_tcp.recmode						!recarm 1 0 ; hide record mode if track not armed
set hide_input_group						!recarm 1 0 ; hide record input if track not armed
set hide_meter_values						!track_selected !recarm 1 0 0 ; hide meter values if track not selected or armed

; ------------------------------

;    element        	size  	padding?
then tcp.recarm 		20 			0
then tcp.recmon 		15 			0
then tcp.label 	   tcp_LabelSize 	0
then tcp.env 			41 			1
then pan_group		tcp_PanSize		1 
then tcp.volume     tcp_VolSize 	0
then tcp.io 			34 			1
then fx_group 			36 			1
then tcp.recmode 		39 			1
then input_group 	  		1

drawTcp

Layout "A"
	paramPair 	tcp_MeterSize 					4 4 10 22 40 80 160 320
	paramPair 	tcp_MeterLoc 					17 0 1 2
	paramPair 	tcp_VolSize 					3 20 40 70 100 130 160 190
	paramPair 	tcp_InSize 						20 49 64 80 100 130 190 240
	paramPair 	tcp_LabelPair 					18 0 20 50 80 110 140 170
	
	set scale 1
	calcTcpSecs
	resetHides
	doHideLogic 	tcp.recarm 		5
	doHideLogic 	tcp.recmon 		6
	doHideLogic 	tcp.label 		7
	doHideLogic 	tcp.volume 		8
	doHideLogic 	tcp.io 			9
	doHideLogic 	fx_group 		10
	doHideLogic 	tcp.env 		11
	doHideLogic 	pan_group 		12
	doHideLogic 	tcp.recmode 	13
	doHideLogic 	input_group 	14
	doHideLogic 	values 			15
	doHideLogic 	meter_values	16

	;    element        	size  	padding?
	then tcp.recarm 		20 			0
	then tcp.recmon 		15 			0
	then tcp.label 	   tcp_LabelSize 	0
	then tcp.env 			41 			1
	then pan_group		tcp_PanSize		1
	then tcp.volume     tcp_VolSize 	0
	then tcp.io 			34 			1
	then fx_group 			36 			1
	then tcp.recmode 		39 			1
	then input_group 	tcp_InSize 		1

	set tcp.label  .
	drawTcp scale
Also, slightly confusingly, even though I don't have the 200% layout selected (I'm guessing because I'm on a retina mac) editing the 200% layout just beneath this bit seemed to be the one that worked.

Last edited by JayJSE2; 07-19-2019 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 07-19-2019, 04:18 PM   #73
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Fixed in 1.12, thanks!
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Fixed in 1.12, thanks!
Confirmed and confirmed.
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Old 07-19-2019, 06:43 PM   #74
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  1. I could limit the width of the rate fader if there's not enough room for it. This might make the user think that the rate adjustment in the script is broken, and is ignoring their preference. Someone might want a big-ass rate fader and no selection readouts, for example.
  2. I could skip elements to the next line progressively, rather than do it 'in halves'. This would look messier on an undocked transport, and doesn't solve the problem of "hey! where did my XXX go?"
  3. I could compress other things. Such as my pet peeve, the enormous position readout, needed for that minority of people making very very long projects while wanting Measures/Beats/Minutes/Seconds all showing at once.

Its a no-win choice. Fun, eh? Anyway, please advise...
v5 theme seems to handle it fine already? Just a thought.
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Old 07-20-2019, 06:31 AM   #75
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v5 theme seems to handle it fine already? Just a thought.
V5 does exactly the same thing. What has changed here is the resizeable rate fader, and to fix that its going to need to not do what V5 did, one way or another.
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Old 07-20-2019, 06:37 AM   #76
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V5 does exactly the same thing. What has changed here is the resizeable rate fader, and to fix that its going to need to not do what V5 did, one way or another.
So first and third options are fine.
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Old 07-20-2019, 09:11 AM   #77
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Just started testing the new theme 1.1 version after sitting with the 1.0 for a while now and love the white box around the items. It's only hard to see on yellow items but that's to be expected.

Would love to see this for tracks too if that's possible at some point..

The other thing I love is the track panel option for Align controls as "aligned" as I find that much cleaner.

The only issue I've had with it being aligned though is that it's easy for the names of parent tracks to end up being truncated at the right side when the childs are not which might be a bug. This only happens with auto name lengths and having the names long enough that it pushes out the parent track name.

All in all though great stuff! (now I'm going back to turn all the grey menus, arrange and backgrounds to solid black again. When I switched from my old edited version it was like someone had set the gamma wrong lol) That's just me though!
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Old 07-20-2019, 09:16 AM   #78
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Oh and I also love resizing the mixer as I can set it to just about line up with my mackie controls that sit under the main monitor for a bit more mix information.

I'm hoping at some point we can go in and slightly tweak the size are selves but no worries if it's not just don't loose the current 150 and 200 options!
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Old 07-20-2019, 09:28 AM   #79
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Hmm. Still occasionally loosing the theme adjuster settings..

Any clues why?

Am I meant to save them with something?

The theme, the window sets, the layouts, the default project? argh!
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Old 07-20-2019, 11:21 AM   #80
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View master fader in TCP still seems bugged for me, like the tcp panel for it is extremely zoomed in and fuzzed out
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