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Old 09-30-2017, 07:45 AM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewjumpsoffbuildings View Post
hey Geoff, cant wait to test this, im wondering though, in its current form will it work with the Icon QCon Pro? or is it just set up for Mackie control surfaces currently?
You should be fine, just set your QCon to speak Mackie, not HUI.

It likely already does unless you're set up for PT, PT doesn't speak Mackie, only HUI.
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Old 09-30-2017, 07:51 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Some progress with new build (thanks for the 32 bit build btw., so I can test in my usual setup).

Tried to do a screengrab to show exactly what I'm doing:

0:00
Reaper's native MCU plugin selected, move knobs for faders 1-3, can be seen in Reaper that the track faders move accordingly.

0:07
Change to your plugin.

0:23
Move knobs for faders 1-3.
Debug console shows input yay !
But track faders don't move. Any idea why that is ?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rbrowz9h60...Test1.gif?dl=1

Funny sidenote:
I hear a General MIDI piano playing each time I do something in Reaper (e.g. select / add / remove tracks) while your plugin is enabled.

I think that's because currently it's sending MIDI feedback to all available ports and so triggers the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth.
I assume that will change when we can select select the MIDI ports for your plugin like for the other surface plugins. ?
Oh yeah, I expected some Midi funkiness, do you have a piano on Midi Channel 1, 2, 3, or 6 ?

As far as the faders, in the debug window see the name of the surface -- it's to the leftmost of each midi message line ?

You are coming in on "Mix2".

In the hardwired setup there are 20 channels, the first 8 are on "Mix1", the second 8 on "Mix2", and the last four on "Control"

Your surface is set to control tracks 9 through 16

Were you testing a project with fewer than 20 tracks ?

Hmmm.... I should put a tip in the download area.... done

It's a good idea to use a 20 track test project (blank tracks are fine)

You will be able to tell where your surface is showing up by the Control Surface name at the left of the midi message in the debug window
Mix1 - tracks 1-8
Mix2 - tracks 9-16
Control - tracks 17-20

Oh yeah, another tip/workaround, when you open a project hit bank one way then the other to get things initialized correctly, or course this will be fixed before long
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Last edited by Geoff Waddington; 09-30-2017 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 09-30-2017, 08:11 AM   #163
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These are the MIDI devices Reaper sees:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
As far as the faders, in the debug window what is the name of the surface -- it's to the leftmost of each midi message line ?
So my surface is named "BCR2000". That's not what I'm seeing in the debug window though, it says "Mix2" there (as can be seen in above screengrab).

This is just a setup for testing though, in my actual setup I use a virtual MIDI loopback for surface in / out. But this is maybe something to test later, when the basic setup is working.

Quote:
Oh yeah, I expected some Midi funkiness, do you have a piano on Midi Channel 1, 2, 3, or 6 ?
Pretty sure it's the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth (also can be seen in above screenshot as MIDI out) that gets triggered which is there by default (installed by Windows).

edit:
Just saw your edit now after typing.
Will test now and get back.
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Old 09-30-2017, 08:14 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
These are the MIDI devices Reaper sees:





So my surface is named "BCR2000". That's not what I'm seeing in the debug window though, it says "Mix2" there (as can be seen in above screengrab).

This is just a setup for testing though, in my actual setup I use a virtual MIDI loopback for surface in / out. But this is maybe something to test later, when the basic setup is working.



Pretty sure it's the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth (also can be seen in above screenshot as MIDI out) that gets triggered which is there by default (installed by Windows).

edit:
Just saw your edit now after typing.
Will test now and get back.

Haha I was editing while you were posting

Reread the post, hopefully will get you sorted...
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Old 09-30-2017, 08:16 AM   #165
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Hi Geoff
I have the Euphonix MC Control and i wonder if i can use it with your CSI plugin
For now i use it with your other plugin in EUCON mode. What is advantage/ disadvantage if i compare EUCON with MCU?
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Old 09-30-2017, 08:21 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post

Your surface is set to control tracks 9 through 16

Were you testing a project with fewer than 20 tracks ?

Hmmm.... I should put a tip in the download area.... done

It's a good idea to use a 20 track test project (blank tracks are fine)

You will be able to tell where your surface is showing up by the Control Surface name at the left of the midi message in the debug window
Mix1 - tracks 1-8
Mix2 - tracks 9-16
Control - tracks 17-20

Oh yeah, another tip/workaround, when you open a project hit bank one way then the other to get things initialized correctly, or course this will be fixed before long
Success, this was it !



Feedback back to the BCR isn't working yet though, should it ?
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Old 09-30-2017, 08:23 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loupis45 View Post
Hi Geoff
I have the Euphonix MC Control and i wonder if i can use it with your CSI plugin
For now i use it with your other plugin in EUCON mode. What is advantage/ disadvantage if i compare EUCON with MCU?
I have a Control, and I like the EuCon implementation for the Control if that's all you have, there is a lot there.

This new plugin is more aimed at folks who want to radically customize their surface(s) and are willing to pay the price of working with configurations.

It will also be particularly beneficial for those want to integrate multiple surfaces, phones, pads, etc. as the project grows to encompass OSC and web.
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Old 09-30-2017, 08:31 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Success, this was it !



Feedback back to the BCR isn't working yet though, should it ?
Yay !!

Feedback should work, just looked at your screenshot, looks llke you might have a different input and output channel on the BCR2000.

Ok we will worry about a file format for the main project later, meanwhile, over the weekend I'll get us at least a small file so that we can set up our midi configurations, this stuff needs to be fixed now, or it will drive you guys nuts

So yeah, long story short, the current situation is hardwired:

Mix1 input 1 output 1
Mix2 input 2 output 2
Control input 3 output 3
Console 1 input 7 output 6
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Old 09-30-2017, 08:45 AM   #169
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Cool, looking forward to it.
Happy we got it basically working.

edit:
Quote:
So yeah, long story short, the current situation is hardwired:
Ok, I think I'm now starting to get a grip how it works.
I think this explains why I hear the GM synth and have no feedback on the BCR, looks to me the feedback is currently output on the wrong MIDI port.

So assumingly the coming MIDI setup file will fix it.

Last edited by nofish; 09-30-2017 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 09-30-2017, 08:47 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Cool, looking forward to it.
Happy we got it basically working.
Actually I'll get to work on a simple ini file, should have something later today
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Old 09-30-2017, 12:12 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
I have a Control, and I like the EuCon implementation for the Control if that's all you have, there is a lot there.

This new plugin is more aimed at folks who want to radically customize their surface(s) and are willing to pay the price of working with configurations.

It will also be particularly beneficial for those want to integrate multiple surfaces, phones, pads, etc. as the project grows to encompass OSC and web.
I have just donate and tomorrow I will try to do some testing. Thanks Geoff!
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Old 09-30-2017, 12:15 PM   #172
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OK, new build is up with external file for control surface definition.

Instructions on stash page:

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/31711/CSI%20pre%20alpha.zip
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Old 09-30-2017, 12:19 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loupis45 View Post
I have just donate and tomorrow I will try to do some testing. Thanks Geoff!
Thanks !!

This is very early testing, so don't expect much to work right away, and things that do work may... sort of work
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Old 09-30-2017, 02:31 PM   #174
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Ooops. my bad I didn't state clearly what to do with the CSI.ini file.

Here's the addendum I posted on the stash site:

Now uses resource path/CSI/CSI.ini for defining your control surface list

You MUST make a folder called CSI in Reaper resources path and put the CSI.ini file in the CSI folder you just made.
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Old 09-30-2017, 05:01 PM   #175
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Yeah, now we're talking !

Feedback to BCR works, Fader bank 1 works (didn't test the other yet, but assume it's also working when I set it up), select/mute/solo/pan works.
Nothing displays on my Mackie display emulation currently though, should the display also work already (might be that I still have a setup error though) ?

Some remarks:

- I think in the .ini file description it should actually say "port" (as in MIDI port) instead of channel, no ? That confused me at first.

- I think there's currently no way to know for testers which number corresponds to which port / channel other than using trial and error or ?
I went all combinations through until I landed with
BCR200 8 5 8
for the first bank.

Great stuff, more testing tomorrow.
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Old 09-30-2017, 05:10 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Yeah, now we're talking !

Feedback to BCR works, Fader bank 1 works (didn't test the other yet, but assume it's also working when I set it up), select/mute/solo/pan works.
Nothing displays on my Mackie display emulation currently though, should the display also work already (might be that I still have a setup error though) ?

Some remarks:

- I think in the .ini file description it should actually say "port" (as in MIDI port) instead of channel, no ? That confused me at first.

- I think there's currently no way to know for testers which number corresponds to which port / channel other than using trial and error or ?
I went all combinations through until I landed with
BCR200 8 5 8
for the first bank.

Great stuff, more testing tomorrow.
Excellent !!

Yeah, this is just a temporary hack to get you folks going, it will be cleaned up for the real file.

The display works here, might want to check your end.

Thanks for testing !!
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Old 10-01-2017, 01:38 AM   #177
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Hi,

may be an useless feedback but actualy I was able to get feedback light on one of my Novation Launch Control XL pad. (using the MCU option) The five one in the track control line. You can imagine how enjoyable was this moment ^^

With more (incoming or futur) parameters included in the ini file could it be usable with this controler? Or a complete rebuilt would be necessary?

I know nothing about coding. Yesterday I looked as far as I could into oscii-bot but it seems there is sysex compatibility issue. Unfortunately the Celphor mod https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=147204 is indeed crashing. MIDI-OX handle this controler very well as well as Bome SendSX. But those are "just" controling/converting tools right?

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Old 10-01-2017, 06:20 AM   #178
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More progress, virtual display is working, yay !



What confused me yesterday (when I thought it didn't work) was that there's nothing displayed if track name is empty (doh, my bad).

edit:
Reaper's native MCU plugin shows the track numbers in this case instead, maybe that's a good idea for future versions.


Quote:
as you move the fader the display shows volume in db, then, after you let go of the fader the display reverts back to track name.
I guess this isn't implemented yet ?

Ready for what's to come next.

Btw, my remarks in the previous post weren't ment as negative feedback (I know we're in early testing stage), rather as hints for other testers , in case that came across wrong.

Last edited by nofish; 10-01-2017 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 10-01-2017, 11:25 AM   #179
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New build is up: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/31711/CSI%20pre%20alpha.zip

This one adds a funky feature that you likely wouldn't really use, but it does illustrate a use case.

If your track is peaking the Mute light acts as a clip indicator !

Whaaa ?

Well, if the track is not muted, the mute light is unused.

I know, another contrived example.

Yes, but this one has a point and shows we have achieved what we were going for in Phase 1, the Triple Lindy, actions definable at so fine a granularity that it will be possible in a map to treat the push button and the light completely separately, together, or, like in this case, a combination of the 2.

This shows we should be able to make a map entry for just about anything we can dream up .

From now on it's just the grunt work of filling in the actions, keep testing, let me know how it's working, what could be better, what you want to see, etc., and i'll keep forging ahead with the labour part
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Old 10-01-2017, 11:29 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
More progress, virtual display is working, yay !



What confused me yesterday (when I thought it didn't work) was that there's nothing displayed if track name is empty (doh, my bad).

edit:
Reaper's native MCU plugin shows the track numbers in this case instead, maybe that's a good idea for future versions.

Quote:
as you move the fader the display shows volume in db, then, after you let go of the fader the display reverts back to track name.

I guess this isn't implemented yet ?

Ready for what's to come next.

Btw, my remarks in the previous post weren't ment as negative feedback (I know we're in early testing stage), rather as hints for other testers , in case that came across wrong.
Fader shows db ? Not yet, but it will come along as we work through the list.

No worries, my skin is thick, and I didn't even get a neg vibe at all anyway

As far as channel numbers, will think about it, the obvious pushback being that's what they wanted "", or they would have named the tracks...
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Old 10-01-2017, 11:36 AM   #181
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If it's not too much hassle, could you add a setting in the .ini file so that we can turn on / off console output ?

It's very useful for the inital setup (as seen in my case), but then not so much for the actual testing because it's flooding with messages and so gives a distorted picture of the actual smoothness / reaction time.

This it what happens if I turn a knob a little faster:



===

About to test the funky feature and will report back then. Thanks.

edit:
Oh, I just figured I don't have a Mute light here on the BCR.
I can toggle tracks mute which works fine but there's no visual indication for it on the controller.

Someone with an actual MCU has to chime in here, sorry.

Last edited by nofish; 10-01-2017 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 10-02-2017, 08:41 AM   #182
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New build is up: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/31711/CSI%20pre%20alpha.zip

Includes CSI.ini settings for monitoring MIDI in/out.

Just received some interesting info re: midi message formats of non MCU surfaces that will require a minor redesign, so all may be quiet for a short while, but don't worry, I'm on it
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:20 AM   #183
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Turning off the console output results in the faders now being as snappy as I was used to from the native MCU plugin.

Before they were rather sticky and I wasn't sure if it was because of the console output flooding or some other issue, but it was indeed because of the console output. Great, thanks.

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Old 10-03-2017, 01:52 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Turning off the console output results in the faders now being as snappy as I was used to from the native MCU plugin.

Before they were rather sticky and I wasn't sure if it was because of the console output flooding or some other issue, but it was indeed because of the console output. Great, thanks.

Very good, glad the performance is there.

The redesign went way more quickly than expected, done !

So now it's all about settling on a map format and building all the actions...
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Old 10-03-2017, 05:00 PM   #185
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New build is up: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/31711/CSI%20pre%20alpha.zip

Display shows track volume whilst touch sensitive fader is touched.
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:05 AM   #186
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Again, I'm out for testing this one (non-touch sensitive faders here).

But in case it's time for requests / sugestions already... (If not, let us know.)

This screen grab shows two things I like:

- Permanent display of track names AND track volume (would come in handy here for us non-touch sensitive controller folks.)

- I mentioned in a previous post already, I've been experimenting with a way to indicate currently controlled tracks in Reaper and have come to the conclusion so far that maybe the best we can do currently (since we don't have a dedicated element for it) is 'abuse' the grouping feature. Notice how the red indicators switch as I switch banks.

What do you think of these ? Or is this all stuff we can do via the map feature ?


Last edited by nofish; 10-04-2017 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 10-04-2017, 10:23 AM   #187
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Yeah, mapping will handle the track name and track volume thing, perhaps down the way a bit, but it will be there.

You have the ability to lock tracks to a channel, so a locked track night not even be visible in Reaper's MCP it may be very far away compared to where the banking is currently, not sure how easy it's going to be to indicate in Reaper what's going on with the surface in terms of track layout, have to think on that...
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Old 10-06-2017, 03:24 AM   #188
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FYI update.

I've been struggling a bit with some of the stuff on my setup, since I'm only emulating an MCU by using Avid Artist Mixes and Control in Mackie mode.

However, kudos to Avid/Euphonix (and I don't say that often) for their MCU emulation on the Control.

Using SoftKeys I was able to map everything except the wheel and Global functions.

The LCD screen lower row does not seem to be available on the Mixes or Control either.

Other than that, I'm very happy to be much closer to a full emulation, and I haven't given up yet

Makes the job of testing much, much easier !
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Old 10-06-2017, 06:12 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post

The LCD screen lower row does not seem to be available on the Mixes or Control either.
Not sure if it helps, but I'm using the Mackie display emulation contained in BC Manager which does display both rows (as seen in my screen grabs).

https://mountainutilities.eu/bcmanager
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Old 10-06-2017, 06:29 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
my setup, since I'm only emulating an MCU by using Avid Artist Mixes and Control in Mackie mode
Hi Geoff, can you please tell me more about how you set your setup since I own the same Avid units?
Thanks
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Old 10-06-2017, 07:44 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Not sure if it helps, but I'm using the Mackie display emulation contained in BC Manager which does display both rows (as seen in my screen grabs).

https://mountainutilities.eu/bcmanager
I was hoping you'd jump in

Thanks, you get to test any 2nd row functionality
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Old 10-06-2017, 07:46 AM   #192
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Hi Geoff, can you please tell me more about how you set your setup since I own the same Avid units?
Thanks
I'm just finalizing it now, I certainly will share it with you when it's done.

Do you already have your Mix and Control talking to Reaper in Mackie mode ?
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Old 10-06-2017, 08:26 AM   #193
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Holy crap this is (I think) exactly what I'm after. I'd love to donate - but can you tell me if I'm reading this correctly? I can get midi feedback to the BCR2000 now? Can I use it to get midi feedback from say a selected plugin? Ideally the bx_console N?
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Old 10-06-2017, 01:50 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post

Do you already have your Mix and Control talking to Reaper in Mackie mode ?
Thanks Geoff, no at the moment I'm using your eucon solution.
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Old 10-07-2017, 08:40 AM   #195
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OK, let's chat about modifier keys...

Here's my proposal:

Let's do an example where, for some strange reason we want to call "Play" "Tony"

So you'll have a Control surface widget name "Tony" that sends the midi messages "90 5e 7f" and "90 5e 00"

A line in a file might look like this (no promises it will look exactly like this):

Tony 90 5e 7f 90 5e 00

So we say we are going to call those button on and off messages from the surface (the ones normally used for Mute) "Tony"

Now we need a corresponding action.

Let's call the Reaper Play action "Tony".

Now when you press the Mute button (aka Tony) Reaper will run the Play Action (akaTony).

OK now we need to accommodate modifiers like Shift, Control, etc.

In the interest of keeping things simple and readable, I suggest the following simple convention:

If you press Shift, the named button gets the modifier prepended a la "ShiftTony".

If you pressed Alt you get "AltTony".

We can allow combinations:

ShiftAltTony
OptionControlTony etc.

We simply then name a Reaper action the same (e.g. AltTony) and that action runs when Alt + Tony is pressed.

Now to keep things sane we need a rule -- Yeah, yeah I know, maximum flexibility....

The rule is the modifiers can only appear in this order:

Shift -- Option -- Control -- Alt

These are fine:

ShiftControlAltTony

OptionControlTony

ControlAltTony

These are not due to out of order modifiers:

ControlShiftTony

AltOptionTony

Not quite as flexible as no restrictions but still WAY more modifiers for a particular button than most of us can remember.

What do you think folks ?
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:41 AM   #196
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OK, I think we have all the rules for modifiers:

1) Modifiers can only appear in this order: Shift -- Option -- Control -- Alt

2) Modifiers are reserved words. You cannot have an Action named "Shift" or "Alt". You can have an Action named "ShiftAlt"

3) # is a reserved symbol, used as a delimiter between the modifier(s) and the Widget name, you cannot use "#" in your names.

That's it so far, hope we don't need any more rules
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:20 PM   #197
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Coding is groovin' along.

2 more reserved words -- TrackVolume, TrackPan

These are necessary for Flip.

Been thinking about sends and plugins, anyone have a preferred way to do these ?

Don't forget we can dedicated a whole map to each of them if we want.

I'm debating with myself the pros and cons of this approach vs just staying in the same map and altering behaviour locally, like the push encoder top for width action alters the encoder behaviour only.

Help me out folks, thoughts and ideas more than appreciated !
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:26 AM   #198
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Hi Geoff,

First, thank you for doing this.

I don't have much experience with control surfaces but I can talk about how I use my BCR2000. I tried to get Klink's plugin running but I was never able to. I'm sure it's just something I did wrong.

here is how I have been using the BCR2000.

I Leave P1 at the default for use with my MIDI 2 LR program. In REAPER I use P2.
In P2 All encoders have been changed to relative.
The top row maps to send levels on whatever channel is selected in the MCP but I only use the first 4 encoders. The second 4 don't see any action.
Then on the bottom 24 encoders, I have the left most group (column 1) mapped so that the bottom encoder adjusts the volume fader of the selected track. The next encoder up adjusts the pan of the selected track.
Columns 2 through 8 are used for plugin parameter control. I open the plugin I want to use and try to match the encoders to the layout of the plugin and use the Param MIDI Learn feature. The attached picture should help.

Here is my ideal (dream) setup

I would like to use a different preset group (P2, P3, P4...) for each plugin so that I could mix and match the encoder styles, absolute vs relative, to suit the plugin being controlled. When I select the plugin I would like the BCR2000 to jump to the correct preset. Maybe leave P1 for track control so that each column of encoders map to a bank of 8 tracks.

I'm not sure if this is the kind of input you are looking for but it is what I think would make the BCR2000 nearly perfect.

Thanks again for all your work.

Jones
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Old 10-13-2017, 04:58 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by rschlierbeck View Post
Hi Geoff,

First, thank you for doing this.

I don't have much experience with control surfaces but I can talk about how I use my BCR2000. I tried to get Klink's plugin running but I was never able to. I'm sure it's just something I did wrong.

here is how I have been using the BCR2000.

I Leave P1 at the default for use with my MIDI 2 LR program. In REAPER I use P2.
In P2 All encoders have been changed to relative.
The top row maps to send levels on whatever channel is selected in the MCP but I only use the first 4 encoders. The second 4 don't see any action.
Then on the bottom 24 encoders, I have the left most group (column 1) mapped so that the bottom encoder adjusts the volume fader of the selected track. The next encoder up adjusts the pan of the selected track.
Columns 2 through 8 are used for plugin parameter control. I open the plugin I want to use and try to match the encoders to the layout of the plugin and use the Param MIDI Learn feature. The attached picture should help.

Here is my ideal (dream) setup

I would like to use a different preset group (P2, P3, P4...) for each plugin so that I could mix and match the encoder styles, absolute vs relative, to suit the plugin being controlled. When I select the plugin I would like the BCR2000 to jump to the correct preset. Maybe leave P1 for track control so that each column of encoders map to a bank of 8 tracks.

I'm not sure if this is the kind of input you are looking for but it is what I think would make the BCR2000 nearly perfect.

Thanks again for all your work.

Jones
Thanks for the input, always welcomed and appreciated.

As far as your dream solution, I think the key is whether we can send a preset change to the BCR2000 by midi, do you know if that's possible ?

If so, I think your ideal could be realized.
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Old 10-13-2017, 05:41 AM   #200
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If I'm reading this correctly then it should be possible to send a message to change the preset.

From the manual:

19.3 Preset selection
There are four ways of selecting a memory preset:
1. Press ‘= PRESET” or ‘PRESET <’ on the BC. See §23.5 for discussion.
2. Send a Program Change MIDI message to the BC. Specifically: $Cn MemoryPreset!1, where n
is equal to .rxch’s ReceiveChannel !1.
3. Send Behringer’s SysEx command $22 to the BC, specifying the desired memory preset.
4. Send a BCL chain to the BC containing a recall statement: $recall MemoryPreset.
Any of these preset selection methods causes the BC to execute the following sequence of actions:
1. The BC copies the selected memory preset’s settings to the temporary preset. Note that this does
not include the Value settings of the memory preset’s elements, since these Value settings aren’t
actually part of the memory preset as such.
2. If the preset’s Request setting is on, the BC sends any MIDI bytes defined in the preset’s LEARN
output (as defined via one or more .tx statements).
3. If the preset’s Snapshot setting is on, the BC sends any standard and/or custom output defined for
the preset’s elements. See §23.4.

Item 2 sounds like the ticket.
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