Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > Projects > Deprecated REAPER issue tracker > Feature Request

Arrangement Splitview and 4-point commands Issue Tools
issueid=3716 10-28-2011 05:29 AM
Human being with feelings
Arrangement Splitview and 4-point commands
Split up the arrangement to facilitate amongst other things, 4-point editing


Post your comments and suggestions in the discussion thread.

Goals
  • Keep two areas of the same arrangement or arrangements from two different project tabs in constant view.

  • Enable comfortable, modern 4-point editing through this double-view

  • Make it easy to show and hide this double-view and pick what each view shows.

Below is a long, detailed method of how to do it.


Arrangement Split View for Multiple Views in to any session and 4-Point Editing
(version 2 October 28th 2011)

The Split View

The arrangement is vertically split in two arrangement views.

First a simple illustration

Each view, which we will call A and B is
  • completely independant of the other

  • the first(A) will show what the arrangement already showed by default, i.e. all the tracks that the user had visible in the arrangement area

  • each view has its own loop and time selection, even if both views show the same project

  • each view can show any number of tracks of one project tab

  • one view can be in focus at a time, meaning all transport and (non 3/4-point) editing commands apply to the view in focus only

  • the focus must be indicated in a way that does not obstruct the user visually but is still easy to spot. One suggestion for this is a toolbar icon with two states, one showing a upper case, bold "A" and one showing an upper case bold "B". An even more obvious indicator could be with a simple colour gradient from the normal background to black, with black facing the unfocused view. There are plenty of other ways to handle an indication like this, and these are but two ideas we have come up with so far.

  • The source and destination view selection of 3- and 4-point editing commands do not depend on the focus of a view. The Source/Destination selector determines the source and destination. The suggested indicator is a toolbar icon with two states. One pointing upwards, indicating the source being at the lower view (B) and the destination above it(A). The second pointing downwards, indications the source being in the upper view(A) and the destination in the lower view(B).

    The Source/Destination selector is part of a suggested Split View Toolbar that is placed inbetween the two views.

  • all 3- and 4-point commands switch focus to the destination view by default upon completion to facilitate verification of a 3/4-point editing operation. Alternately a toolbar button and command could be supplied to play the finished edit with a configurable pre- and post-roll.

  • The track manager will display the contents of the view in focus, with a show/hide status for the tracks completely independant of that in the sessions the tracks come from.

    The show/hide status of a track in a view may or may NOT have an effect on what the 3/4-point commands copy from or paste to. See the explanation of the "3/4-point commands affect ALL TRACKS in View" option below for details.


The View Selectors, of which there are two in the small brown area depicted in the mockup, will let the user choose what each view displays.

Choosing contents for each view would be simple if all the user could choose was the actual project, but users in other DAWs have confirmed that most often track groups are the best way to organize track selections for such split views, in addition to custom track selections.

Here are some ideas, confirmed by regular users of similar setups in other DAWs to have been of great use. Each entry could be provided in a dropdown menu of the View Selector
  • all the tracks already visible(default)

  • a track group

  • all track groups (often not the same as all tracks)

  • a track

  • a custom set of tracks (custom sets 1-8 per project)

  • Other Project tab submenu(one per open project tab)
    • all tracks of a different project tab


    • a track group of a different project tab


    • all track groups of a different project tab


    • a track of a different project tab


    • a custom set of tracks (custom sets 1-8 per project)

Split View Options

Two options have already been mentioned,
  • the Focus Indicator and
  • the Source/Destination Selector.
Both can be implemented with the existing functionality of toolbar icon buttons, and the following can be implemented the same way.
  • Ripple Editing status indicator for the destination view

    This would in fact be only a copy of the destination view's Ripple Editing status.

    The reason for showing this independantly of which view is currently in focus, is that the user is almost always most interested in what the destination views's ripple editing status is, and not that of the source view, which is usually in focus during the time source selections are made.

    It is an important status to be aware of and thus it is requested that this be part of a Split View Toolbar.

  • 3/4-point commands affect ALL TRACKS in View(default)

    Tracks in the views can consist of way more than one of those tracks. Some users may even want to hide all but one, but still perform edits on them.

    For this reason the View Selectors are not show/hide selectors, but mimic edit group functionality.

    The track manager should in fact allow the user to HIDE tracks they do not need to see but still wish to include in 3-/4-point edit. Thus the track manager will be local to the view in focus and thus completely ignorant of the sessions that the tracks in each view actually stem from. If the user wishes to add or remove tracks from one of the views, and not just hide them, the user must do this from the View Selectors.

    All this is to allow the user to perform complex edits on as many tracks as they want with just one track visible, an established, highly efficient method in music editing in general.

  • Destination IN location set to end last edit operation(on by default)

    This option place the edit cursor and the IN location at the end of the last edit operations paste action. In other words, you keep advancing to the end of your last edit.

    Reasons for this to be OFF is when you want to try out several different versions, for which you're likely to use 4-point editing and Ripple Mode ON for the destination view.

  • (bonus workflow enhancement idea) View Selection Preset Dropdown menu that displays eight slots to change boths views at once and provide a dual-view history. Slot selection activates dual-view preset, submenu-selector to the right of slot entry opens up submenu to save/clear preset. History presented at the bottom with submenu selector revealing contents in detail. An optional idea :) .



Source Destination Actions
The Concept of 3-point editing and 4-point editing

The techniques of 3- and 4-point editing are used a lot in classical music editing and film/video editing.

The main idea is to copy and paste in just one command between two very different locations or even projects, usually in Ripple mode(stuff pasted/cut in/out, pushes/pulls other stuff ahead/toward of itself).

3-point editing is when you have THREE markers to use in defining your source and destination. The easiest two methods to remember are "SOURCE IN", "SOURCE OUT" (source begin and source end) and DESTINATION IN (destination begin). How things end up in the destination tracks also depends whether Ripple mode is on or not, or whether the destination IN marker is set to jump to the end of a pasted item. That way the editor can keep pasting in new material to build a new edit for example, without having to touch the destination IN marker.

4-point editing uses all four possible markers. Source IN and OUT, and Destination IN and OUT. The clever thing is that the destination area enclosed by the destination IN and OUT markers does not need to be of the same length as that enclosed by the source IN and OUT markers. Ripple mode is often used in this instance.

The Split View provides us with the basic canvas for this functionality. Now all we need are ways to say "This is the source view" and "This is the Destination View". Everything else we'll be needing is practical rules and actions to make this work well. This kind of editing has been in use for many, many years so we can draw on quite a bit of experience to make it all efficient and fun to use.

The Details
3-point editing is making a selection in one view, i.e. setting the IN and OUT (via item/time selection or area selection), and setting either the IN or OUT location in the other view, then issuing the command

3-point Copy and Paste

The command works from three states with Ripple Editing either on or off.

The user has set :
  1. IN and OUT locations in the SOURCE view (selection),

    IN location for the DESTINATION view(no OUT location, no selection)

    Result:
    • Focus is set to the source view,
    • the selection in the source view is copied,
    • focus is set to the destination view,
    • if Ripple mode in on for the destination view, the copied selection is inserted at the destination IN location.
    • if Ripple mode is off for the destination view, the copied selection overwrites the destination, starting at the IN location of the destination view.

      The command will affect all tracks if the option 3/4-point commands affect ALL TRACKS in View is on, which should be the default.


  2. IN location in the SOURCE view (no OUT location, no selection),

    IN and OUT locations for the DESTINATION view (selection)

    Result:
    • Focus is set to the source view,
    • a selection, starting at the IN location of the SOURCE view with the length of the selection in the DESTINATION view is copied,
    • focus is set to the destination view,
    • if Ripple mode in on for the destination view, the copied selection is inserted at the destination IN location.
    • if Ripple mode is off for the destination view, the copied selection overwrites the destination, starting at the IN location of the destination view.

      The command will affect all tracks if the option 3/4-point commands affect ALL TRACKS in View is on, which should be the default.


  3. IN and OUT locations in the SOURCE view (selection),

    OUT location for the DESTINATION view(no IN location, no selection)

    Result:
    • Focus is set to the source view,
    • the selection in the source view is copied,
    • focus is set to the destination view,
    • if Ripple mode in on for the destination view, the copied selection is inserted at the destination OUT location, which is exactly what happens in the first method with the DESTINATION IN point.
    • if Ripple mode is off for the destination view, the copied selection overwrites the destination, ending at the OUT location of the destination view.

      The command will affect all tracks if the option 3/4-point commands affect ALL TRACKS in View is on, which should be the default.

A fourth state would be to set and OUT for the source view and IN & OUT for the destination view. User feedback is likely to determine whether this state would need to be accounted for.

Also, if all four locations are set (SOURCE IN and OUT, DESTINATION IN and OUT), the first method is used (SOURCE IN and OUT, DESTINATION IN).


4-point Copy and Paste

The command works from one state with Ripple Editing either on or off.

The user has set :
  1. IN and OUT locations in the SOURCE view (selection),

    IN and OUT location for the DESTINATION view (selection)

    Result:
    • Focus is set to the source view,
    • the selection in the source view is copied,
    • focus is set to the destination view,
    • if Ripple mode in on for the destination view, the copied selection is inserted at the destination IN location.
    • if Ripple mode is off for the destination view, the copied selection overwrites the destination, starting at the IN location of the destination view.


    • NOTE!!!
      The DESTINATION selection is first deleted, and then the source selection is pasted at the DESTINATION IN location. As a result, if Ripple Editing is on, the destination area is replaced by the source area. If Ripple editing is off, the destination is written to with the source selection but only up to the DESTINATION OUT location !!!

      Should a user wish to overwrite past the DESTINATION OUT location, he/she would need to use the 3-point copy and paste command.


      The command will affect all tracks if the option 3/4-point commands affect ALL TRACKS in View is on, which should be the default.


Setting IN and OUT locations in a view

They set the start and end of the time selection, though the OUT location may need something new. You'd think these commands are already available but you'd be wrong. They are not available the way we need them.

We only need two commands.

  • "Set/clear IN" (action and toolbar icon button)
  • "Set/clear OUT" (action and toolbar icon button)

Why "Set/Clear" and not just "Set" ?
Three point editing requires only three points, which is why the user needs to be able to clear those locations. ERASING the time selection is not a good way to save time because that removes BOTH the IN and OUT locations, plus you cannot set only the OUT location with the time selection.

It works as a toggle depending on where the user is with his/her edit cursor. The Source IN/OUT and Destination IN/OUT designations will now be referred to as locations.


If the edit cursor is on the location in question the location is cleared, i.e. deleted.

If the edit cursor is not on the location in question the location is set to the new position.
That's it.

The consequence is that you have two functions, one for each marker type(IN/OUT) can be used to set or clear any of the markers.

Thus, to set an IN marker you click somewhere and "Set/clear IN".

To delete the IN marker, you click either on the IN marker(time selection start) and "Set/clear IN" once, or click anywhere but the IN marker and "Set/clear IN" twice.

Compiled Action List

  • Toggle Arrange Split view on/off (enables 3/4-point commands to work at all) (on Split View Toolbar)


  • Toggle SOURCE and DESTINATION view assignment (on Split View Toolbar)


  • Toggle Ripple mode for Destination view (on Split View Toolbar)


  • Focus on 3/4-point SOURCE view


  • Focus on 3/4-point DESTINATION view


  • Toggle focus between 3/4-point SOURCE and DESTINATION view (on Split View Toolbar)


  • Set/clear IN (on Split View Toolbar)


  • Set/clear OUT (on Split View Toolbar)


  • 3-point Copy and Paste (on Split View Toolbar)


  • 4-point Copy and Paste (on Split View Toolbar)

Streamlining Split View Editing

As mentioned above, classical music editing and editing of other multi-track recordings consists of using looking at only one of the tracks, but copy and pasting all of them. That way the editor can concentrate and zoom in to details on one track and affect all with his/her editing decision.

This is most often done with track groups and an attribute of those groups that defines how the tracks are displayed for the Split View.

The group matrix will need another attribute box, and an equivalent in the track group properties window.

"A" - all tracks of the group are displayed

"S" - a single track of the group is displayed. It is chosen in the track group properties window in a dropdown list. The default is the first track of the group.

Custom Track Selection for each view

The user picks "Custom" from the view selector dropdown menu.

This opens up a multicolumn list view. It lists all groups, then all tracks of the current project, then for each other project tab it lists all groups and all tracks, and so on.

The user clicks and drags(as in the show/hide column of the track manager of Protools if you please) on the track and/or group names to select tracks. Multiple of such click and drags can be made. A clear button is probably good to provide. Clicking on a group selects its tracks.

That selection can be stored as a custom selection, which will appear below the "custom" entry in the view dropdown selector. The entry is saved with any project that contributes tracks to it, and will only show up as a selection if the projects it takes the tracks from are open.

Exclusive Playback

Editors are likely to want to hear only the tracks they're editing. This probably needs some more discussion. Probably needs to be optional.

The idea is that any playback of a view will exclude any tracks not present in that view from being played. It would mute the other tracks, which may present a problem with more complex routing. Perhaps solo'ing the tracks in the view being played is preferred. There is potential for the editor to screw things up if he wishes to have a reverb effect present for example, and that effects has not been solo-safed(if solo'ing the current view is done instead of muting all others).

Muting all other tracks will shut down any routing between the tracks in the current view and the master. Only a direct connection to the master track through the master/parent switch would then work. Such is mute.
That's it.

All comments, suggestions and ideas are welcome as always.

Issue Details
Issue Type Feature Request
Project Deprecated REAPER issue tracker
Category GUI and graphics
Status Suggested
Priority 5 - Medium
Suggested Version 4.11
Implemented Version (none)
Users who would use this feature 107
Users who would not use this feature 2
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)

11-28-2011 03:34 AM
Human being with feelings
 
We tried that a couple of times. Overly complicated and limited, it almost always ends up being not fast enough.

Please keep all discussion in the discussion thread. The Issue Tracker posts are only for the FRs, which are changed quite often from all the ideas we collect in our discussion threads.
Reply
Reply

Issue Tools
Subscribe to this issue

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.