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Proper Stereo Panning Issue Tools
issueid=161 06-18-2009 08:24 AM
Human being with feelings
Proper Stereo Panning
When panning a stereo track preserve the stereo information all the way.

Right now, if you have a guitar and a stereo delay going left->right, if you pan the track hard left, you loose the right delay. Or if you have a stereo synth and pan left you loose the right channel information. This makes the panning a killer of stereo information, because has you pan, you start to loose the stereo information of one channel. This is good if you have one mono track routed to a bus where you have the effects, so you pan the mono track to pan the signal in the stereo effect; but this is digital world, Iīm not doing this for every stereo track. I donīt know how people can mix knowing that each time you pan youīre loosing part of the sound, if you know a secret please share:) We need a stereo "balanced" mode.

I know that chamix2 JS plugin does that, but I have to open one everitime I need a new track, them remember to move it down in fx chain, them control the knobs and forget the pan in the track... not very good, especially for such a simple thing as panning...


Thatīs it.

Thanks

jony
This issue is closed. No more replies may be made.
Issue Details
Issue Type Closed Issue
Project Deprecated REAPER issue tracker
Category Audio recording and playback
Status Implemented
Priority 1 - Highest
Affected Version 3.04
Closed Version 4.0
Yes votes 262
No votes 4
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)

06-18-2009 01:33 PM
Human being with feelings
 
could be as a secondary knob called "Input Pan" and the current one could be renamed to "Output Pan"...
06-18-2009 03:38 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Mind if I also inject this long discussion on enhanced panning controls?

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=17715

That should solve cover all cases (except surround).
06-26-2009 07:40 AM
Human being with feelings
 
How about this:

[img]http://img523.**************/img523/9528/dualpanlovelyness.png[/img]

1. By default REAPER should have two faders for panning left and right, but they would be linked (probably knobs, as they would be smaller). This way when you pan left your right goes left to and vica versa.

2. If you un-link (the little lock in between in the pic) the faders or knobs the pans could be adjusted individually, as in 2 sources. Also, when you unlock the faders your pan law would revert to 0 by default (unless optionally changing)

Also, for backwards theming compatability...if the theme did not have these pan knobs included REAPER would use the LICE knobs (i.e. the knobs REAPER uses for FX parameters when not themed)
06-26-2009 07:44 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Thanks for the mockup Labyrinth. I personally do not like the idea of 2 knobs. I think the Cubase paradigm is perfect. You keep the simple and familiar pan control and switch the UI on demand. And the alternate panning UIs look nearly as simple.

The current Reaper pan fader can be cut in half (graphically), either vertically, or horizontally to simulate the extra panning modes (mockup coming up)
06-26-2009 08:05 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Here it is. Crude, the current UI bitmaps are not ideal but it can be done with some knob UI modifications from the devs/designers.



url:https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/177351/...pan-mockup.jpg
06-27-2009 08:00 AM
Human being with feelings
 
It seems to me that for stereo panning to be complete, the gui would have to allow changing the level of left/right as well as pan each of them.
06-27-2009 08:11 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter
It seems to me that for stereo panning to be complete, the gui would have to allow changing the level of left/right as well as pan each of them.
Why is this needed? If you were to need this could you not either use the JS FX or separate on to separate tracks per side.
06-27-2009 12:16 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter
It seems to me that for stereo panning to be complete, the gui would have to allow changing the level of left/right as well as pan each of them.
agree...

in other daw thought of that a long time ago.

and their soloution is like that:

the pan knob, means, how mush volume each chanel(speaker) will get

there is a stereo knob, that combine/seperate between left/right,

and there is also a stereo swap button, that replace between left/right channels.

all these three knobs (+ the volume fader) do the perfect panning and volume.

so actually there are 4 knobs/faders to do the job,
volume fader, pan, stereo combiner, stereo swapper.


so..., i think your sugguestion, with the lock button as above, may be better, and more easy/friendly.
06-28-2009 05:57 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by labyrinth
Why is this needed? If you were to need this could you not either use the JS FX or separate on to separate tracks per side.
I do use a js for stereo width, I've also used routing and 2 mixer strips to give R/L it's own pan and fader. Personally not a big problem.

However, if the channel strip does get a new stereo panner, I do think it should be complete :)
06-30-2009 09:14 AM
Moderator
 
Probably we could right-click on the pan and menu pops up for pan law and a new option to "Split Pan" (Following Evan's mockup)
06-30-2009 09:16 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro
Probably we could right-click on the pan and menu pops up for pan law and a new option to "Split Pan" (Following Evan's mockup)
Exactly.
06-30-2009 11:59 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro
Probably we could right-click on the pan and menu pops up for pan law and a new option to "Split Pan" (Following Evan's mockup)
My thoughts exactly. This would be simple yet very effective solution.
06-30-2009 05:36 PM
Human being with feelings
 
the simplest way to fix this is the way acid did it a long time ago. you just right click on the pan slider to choose the type of panning.

no extra graphical design needed. no extra buttons. i believe that solves the problem, or am i missing something?

http://i40.tinypic.com/3149pg6.jpg

come to think of it, why do we even need stereo tracks per se? its really two streams. its really an outdated, (albeit convenient for the current paradigm) idea. why cant the master buss just be stereo or 5.1 or 8.1 (etc) and have the option to explode or merge tracks into convenient groups of any arbitrary number that suits the encoding format in fashion whatever week it is...

i think reaper is going to blow all previous paradigms away.
06-30-2009 06:00 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by reapercurious
its really an outdated, (albeit convenient for the current paradigm) idea.
It's funny seeing some one post that. Only because I came from tape where if you wanted stereo you had to use two entire tracks to do it. Actually, if you think about it the dual pan suggestions above are really an attempt to retain the panning options that were available back when using two separate tracks was the only choice for stereo. In other words you had full, individual panning abilities for the "left" and "right" tracks. With a stereo track you're trying to include all of this in one track.

Karbo
07-01-2009 02:03 AM
Human being with feelings
 
How about something like this then. Will show the current panning, and you won't need the rightclick menu for changing panning:
[IMG]http://img188.**************/img188/4474/stereopan.th.jpg[/IMG]
07-01-2009 02:51 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
It's funny seeing some one post that. Only because I came from tape where if you wanted stereo you had to use two entire tracks to do it. Actually, if you think about it the dual pan suggestions above are really an attempt to retain the panning options that were available back when using two separate tracks was the only choice for stereo. In other words you had full, individual panning abilities for the "left" and "right" tracks. With a stereo track you're trying to include all of this in one track.

Karbo
somewhere along the line audio lost the way, and we started believing that stereo was inescapable and necessary. i say a modern daw should be able to group or explode mono tracks into and out of stereo, as desired.

while we are at it, there should be a selector to choose the number of channels the master buss should have.
07-01-2009 02:58 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter
How about something like this then. Will show the current panning, and you won't need the rightclick menu for changing panning:
[IMG]http://img188.**************/img188/4474/stereopan.th.jpg[/IMG]
within the rightclick menu, there are different algorithms of panning type. these are math functions that handle the behavior, the type of panning. the addition of a split slider creates more work when it comes to simple panning a little to the left or right, you would have to move both knobs to get the balance right. that would be a nightmare. also, why bother with two panning sliders on one track when you could just as easily have each channel on a different track altogether? stereo is just a gimp couple of mono signals that got glued together by a convention that is almost meaningless in a non-linear daw. better to offer an 'unglue' feature and a panning-type selection menu.
07-01-2009 06:25 AM
Human being with feelings
 
If you look closer at the image (not very clear), there are 3 controls. 2 for the width and 1 for the pan.

The reason for posting is that there is a request for changing the panner, and if so I'd like to have easy access to pan and level of each mono component. On the other hand it's not something I use very much, so not biggie either way. I can very well send each side to a track, or use a stereo width plugin.

BTW: what other ways are there of panning a stereo signal? I only know of either changing the level or panning each mono component.
07-01-2009 08:06 AM
Human being with feelings
 
"ADD Channels pan type makes the stereo image appear to move as a unit between the speakers, and hard panning causes both channels to be fed at full intensity into a single channel. Linear Panning Curve (algorithm)

Balance Pan type is for adjusting the relative signal levels of the right and left channels in stereo source material. moving from the center to a side, the opposite side starts at a base db level (either 0db or -6db) and decays to no signal level. the signal in the side you are panning towards starts at the base db level (either 0db 3-db or -6db) and increases to 0db. when the stereo source is panned fully to one side, that side plays at 0db while the other side provides no signal at all. this also uses a linear panning curve.

The Constant Power type pan is for panning mono source material. as you move the fader from side to side, this pan type creates the illusion of the source moving around the listener from one side to another, in a semi circle. it uses the constant-power panning curve.

the Film Pan Type allows you to pan between pairs of adjacent speakers using a const. power model. this mode is optimized for theater style speaker placement. In stereo projects, Film Mode functions identically to Constant Power, as you drag the pan point to the center speaker, the sound becomes diffused through the front and rear speakers. when the track is panned fully to the center speaker, there is no output from the front and rear spakers. dragging the pan point to the center of the surround panner sends the signal to all speakers.

You can choose the default pan type for new tracks you create."

From the sony acid 6a manual.

I am sure there are some DSP coders out there who can see how this is useful if not necessary.

there are probably even nicer curve types (algorithms as i called them) than those.

---

but if you wanna know how i really feel about it, i think stereo tracks should disappear altogether.
07-01-2009 11:24 AM
Human being with feelings
 
So at the moment we have the standard mono pan and we have a "fader" type stereo pan, changing the level sent to each channel, no way of panning one channel to the other (except external solutions or routing).

So what we miss for a stereo panner is being able to send right to left and vice versa. I'd be happy with being able to do that with a click-drag, and also with a right click and enter value with keyboard. An action to get the right click panning menu for the selected channel/s would be nice too :)

The real reason I'd like the widget, is that I'd like to have a visual indication of how a track is panned.

We are eventually going to be needing multichannel panning, but I suppose that is a separate discussion.
07-01-2009 12:41 PM
Human being with feelings
 
i think stereo is just 'over'

panning is really a convenient way of routing two disparate tracks (in the case of 'true' stereo,) and i think that is unfortunate, because it makes little sense. how could what is meant to be a binaural sound possibly be 'panned' accurately? its just not thought out very well, in my opinion. all tracks should be mono, imho.

or at least we should have a quick function to split a stereo track into two mono tracks and vice/versa.

what do you think?
07-01-2009 01:04 PM
jas jas is offline
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by reapercurious
i think stereo is just 'over'

panning is really a convenient way of routing two disparate tracks (in the case of 'true' stereo,) and i think that is unfortunate, because it makes little sense. how could what is meant to be a binaural sound possibly be 'panned' accurately? its just not thought out very well, in my opinion. all tracks should be mono, imho.

or at least we should have a quick function to split a stereo track into two mono tracks and vice/versa.

what do you think?
This is very wise. If you think about it a little, it solves the whole problem.
07-01-2009 01:51 PM
Moderator
 
I support the idea of having an action/command to "Split selected stereo track(s) into 2 mono tracks" but this should be used only if the user needs it. More tracks means more peaks to display more CPU so I don't see this as a global solution but only an special case option. The ability to split the pan into left and right and move the width created by clicking on the center of the 2 splits and drag it it's still the best implementation to follow, the best and easier way to achieve full control over the stereo information in a given track. Presently when panning we're only lowering the volume of one channel so imagine what we could be able to do with a couple of controls to increase/decrease this stereo image and then, if we need to, move it around.
07-01-2009 03:03 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by reapercurious
or at least we should have a quick function to split a stereo track into two mono tracks and vice/versa.

what do you think?
This function already exists (for individual items anyway.) Schwa pointed this out in another thread.

Right click -> Item processing -> Explode multichannel audio or MIDI items to new mono items.

This mutes the original and creates a a folder with two mono tracks.
07-01-2009 04:48 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jas
This is very wise. If you think about it a little, it solves the whole problem.
That's sort of what I was referring to earlier. Using stereo wave files and computers created the problem to begin with. It didn't exist before because everything was two mono tracks. Of course back then the issue was having to give up a track for every stereo track and tracks were a premium.

Karbo
07-01-2009 05:06 PM
Moderator
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.bop
This function already exists (for individual items anyway.) Schwa pointed this out in another thread.

Right click -> Item processing -> Explode multichannel audio or MIDI items to new mono items.

This mutes the original and creates a a folder with two mono tracks.
Have you noticed this creates new media files? That's the reason why I didn't mention it before in my post. It's a waste of HDD space when Reaper could simply "duplicate the items in 2 tracks and then set all items in those tracks to mono (left or right), pan symmetrically both tracks and set source track as their folder" (I built a macro for this if someone is interested).

Sorry for being off-topic, just wanted to mention this and let you know I got this macro just in case someone needs it.
07-01-2009 05:31 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro
Have you noticed this creates new media files? That's the reason why I didn't mention it before in my post. It's a waste of HDD space when Reaper could simply "duplicate the items in 2 tracks and then set all items in those tracks to mono (left or right), pan symmetrically both tracks and set source track as their folder" (I built a macro for this if someone is interested).

Sorry for being off-topic, just wanted to mention this and let you know I got this macro just in case someone needs it.
Has anyone mentioned duplicating the track then changing the item properties to only use the left and right channel respectively? No need to create new media items but you get two mono tracks...
07-04-2009 03:11 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
Has anyone mentioned duplicating the track then changing the item properties to only use the left and right channel respectively? No need to create new media items but you get two mono tracks...
very sharp observation! that looks like a non-destructive, and space-saving way to commit a stereo track split!

I hope the devs change the feature's code to instead do what you just described!

it is rarely necessary to have a copy of the file, as long as you are still in possession of the original track! for those rare times when we need two files, there is always the render to separate tracks function. very nice.

Great Move Karbomusic! That should be relatively easy to recode.
07-05-2009 03:15 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro
Have you noticed this creates new media files? That's the reason why I didn't mention it before in my post. It's a waste of HDD space when Reaper could simply "duplicate the items in 2 tracks and then set all items in those tracks to mono (left or right), pan symmetrically both tracks and set source track as their folder" (I built a macro for this if someone is interested).

Sorry for being off-topic, just wanted to mention this and let you know I got this macro just in case someone needs it.
i just realized that you and karbomusic said basically the same thing, sorry!

this thread is meant to address 'proper' stereo panning, and i really believe sony acid offered the most robust solution in this regard using a small context menu.
07-05-2009 04:13 AM
Human being with feelings
 
The other way around is getting very little attention. Multiple mono to multitrack item (stereo to 5.1 stems).

I mention this, since many surround mixes come out of Protools systems, and those are multiple mono, which is more convenient if you need to produce multitrack laybacks of different channel configurations.

All the music that editors receive from picture editing via OMF, AAF or other inbetweener formats are multiple mono tracks. Putting these together in Reaper is a royal pain in the ass, so I can't see anyone using Reaper for music editing and mixing in the post world, simply because it's so outlandishley inconvenient.

Multiple Mono -> multitrack item in Reaper - unpractical -> workaround methods useless. The "but we can do it" argument counts for nothing when time requirements litarally explode a couple of order of magnitude as it does here. Pre-processing via an editor is required, which always destroyes any timecode information in the original files thus far.

+1 to the stereo panning.

The ideas for this have all been posted, though I'd certainly like to see how Acid does it. Have a screenshot ?
07-05-2009 05:18 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by labyrinth
How about this:

[img]http://img523.**************/img523/9528/dualpanlovelyness.png[/img]

1. By default REAPER should have two faders for panning left and right, but they would be linked (probably knobs, as they would be smaller). This way when you pan left your right goes left to and vica versa.

2. If you un-link (the little lock in between in the pic) the faders or knobs the pans could be adjusted individually, as in 2 sources. Also, when you unlock the faders your pan law would revert to 0 by default (unless optionally changing)

Also, for backwards theming compatability...if the theme did not have these pan knobs included REAPER would use the LICE knobs (i.e. the knobs REAPER uses for FX parameters when not themed)
i totaly agree with these 2 knobs , as a right click menu and as a custumized option to show them allways instead of the pan slider.
07-05-2009 06:34 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by reapercurious
i just realized that you and karbomusic said basically the same thing, sorry!

this thread is meant to address 'proper' stereo panning, and i really believe sony acid offered the most robust solution in this regard using a small context menu.
Actually, what I mention is different and doesn't create copies. Duplicate the track, set track 1 as DownMix left channel to mono, set track 2 as Downmix right channel to mono. This gives you two tracks (left track/right track) but does not create a copy of the file as a new media item. Its the same file.

The method Mercado is speaking of creates two new audio files in addition to the original stereo file (left channel.wav/ right channel.wav) so you end up with 3 files, Orig, left, right. What I'm speaking of doesn't create anything new but gives two mono tracks as left/right.

Hope that makes sense...


EDIT: Here is a proof-of-concept action that does what I am talking about. The only caveat is it doesn't work if there are multiple items/splits on the track. If it is one contiguous media item (no splits) it should work. Again, just an action to show what I mean. I'm sure there is a better way to create an action to cover multiple items on a track:

http://karywall.net/posts/reaperforu...o.ReaperKeyMap


Karbo
07-08-2009 07:07 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
Actually, what I mention is different and doesn't create copies. Duplicate the track, set track 1 as DownMix left channel to mono, set track 2 as Downmix right channel to mono. This gives you two tracks (left track/right track) but does not create a copy of the file as a new media item. Its the same file.

The method Mercado is speaking of creates two new audio files in addition to the original stereo file (left channel.wav/ right channel.wav) so you end up with 3 files, Orig, left, right. What I'm speaking of doesn't create anything new but gives two mono tracks as left/right.

Hope that makes sense...


EDIT: Here is a proof-of-concept action that does what I am talking about. The only caveat is it doesn't work if there are multiple items/splits on the track. If it is one contiguous media item (no splits) it should work. Again, just an action to show what I mean. I'm sure there is a better way to create an action to cover multiple items on a track:

http://karywall.net/posts/reaperforu...o.ReaperKeyMap


Karbo
Brilliant! A web page doesnt need a new copy of a JPG every time it needs the same image, why should a non-destructive, non-linear DAW?

Reaper, Leaner and Meaner!
07-08-2009 07:41 AM
Moderator
 
karbomusic, reapercurious

Here's the macro I was talking about. It doesn't create new files.

Split Stereo Track Into 2 Mono Tracks

This macro does not replace the original idea (proper stereo panning) in any way. It's just a method some of us could use while we wait for this suggestion to be implemented eventually.

NOTE: You need sws' and Xenakios' extensions.

EDIT: Macro is working ok now, it was missing an action before. Re-download please.
07-08-2009 08:57 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro
karbomusic, reapercurious

Here's the macro I was talking about. It doesn't create new files.

Split Stereo Track Into 2 Mono Tracks

This macro does not replace the original idea (proper stereo panning) in any way. It's just a method some of us could use while we wait for this suggestion to be implemented eventually.

NOTE: You need sws' and Xenakios' extensions.
have you suggested this macro to the devs? do you think it could easily be implemented into reaper before 3.10?

we already have the ability to render new tracks, what we need is a function like you created that macro to do. no?

i will learn how to use a macro before i comment further!
07-08-2009 09:31 AM
Moderator
 
A macro is one of the most powerful features in Reaper (imho the second most porweful feature). Just download the .ReaperKeyMap I linked in my post. Start Reaper and go to main menu Actions->Show action list.... Click on Import/export... button and look for the file. Once it's imported you'll see this as a Custom Action in your action list window. Asign a shortcut to it and you're ready to go. Before importing you'd need to download sws' and Xenakios' extensions from here:

sws' Extension

Xenakios' Extension

This extensions will add more power to control reaper using macros or single actions.

Again, sorry for being off-topic jonyjazy. I'm just trying to help here.
07-11-2009 01:36 PM
Human being with feelings
 
The current mode must be kept as an option to maintain compatibility with projects mixed with earlier versions.

I like the idea of right click splitting the pan slider in half. The halves could then be moved past eachother for a reverse stereo.
07-11-2009 01:38 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrelwood
The halves could then be moved past eachother for a reverse stereo.
Exactly.
07-11-2009 01:42 PM
Human being with feelings
 
how does cubase and logic do it?
07-11-2009 02:23 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct
Agreed.
Agreed again!
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