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Integrated delay on each track Issue Tools
issueid=492 07-06-2009 09:27 AM
Human being with feelings
Integrated delay on each track

Please put a delay (visible in Mixer GUI and TCP) onto each track to be able to delay (positive and negative delays) the track.


Would be cool if we could specify the units in samples, ms and musical measures. Default unit should be "ms" I think.



Some examples:

-90 samples
+10.40 ms
+1.0.00 measures


Discussion: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=15621
Issue Details
Issue Type Elevated FR
Project Deprecated REAPER issue tracker
Category Arcana
Status Popular Request
Priority 3
Suggested Version 3.05
Implemented Version (none)
Users who would use this feature 162
Users who would not use this feature 18
Assigned Users (none)
Tags TCP, TCP Control

08-01-2009 01:10 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Maybe someone can change the title of this request to "Integrated delay on each track".


If my request is still unclear: Cubase/Nuendo style per track delay on the TCP.


Here another request for delays in the routing dialog for sends too: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=756
Reply
08-03-2009 07:29 AM
Human being with feelings
 
I think this could be better done with a plugin. Maybe one that comes integrated with Reaper and does provide the choice of Samples, Beats or MS. Adding another option to the tracks might clutter them, plus I found it sometimes a bit confusing in other Sequencers because I tend to not notice such things and get confused. A plugin might be more obviously seen in this regard.

Is it possible though that a plugin adds a negative delay? Not sure about this.
Reply
08-03-2009 07:53 AM
Human being with feelings
 
You could use track templates with a delay plugin of your choice having the most importable delay controls for tweaking shown on the mixer strip, you know :)
Reply
08-04-2009 12:37 AM
Human being with feelings
 
IMO this is so basic, it needs to be integrated without plugins. Basic as the "Proper Stereo Panning" request: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=161


Besides that I don't know of a single plugin which has all the requested features. Even if there is one -> I still would like to have the delay input field right on the track without opening plugin windows!
Reply
08-04-2009 03:46 AM
Human being with feelings
 
I find this an interesting request mostly for doubling purposes.
Reply
08-04-2009 04:05 AM
Human being with feelings
 
This is fairly specialized feature that a great deal of folks won't need.

Thus such a parameter should be hidden by default IMO. Great idea for anyone with external and internal gear that requires delays.
Reply
08-04-2009 04:25 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by airon
This is fairly specialized feature that a great deal of folks won't need.

Thus such a parameter should be hidden by default IMO. Great idea for anyone with external and internal gear that requires delays.
I know Ableton Live also has this feature by default on the tracks, and yes you can disable it so there is really no need to NOT implement this... it would only make Reaper even better.

Sure, maybe not everyone would use this feature but I know I would! I record drums and having 8 mics to record, I find it's awesome to be able to shift the tracks back and forth in terms of samples, in order to phase align everything without moving them manually with the mouse. Once I have found out the relation between the tracks in terms of samples, I can just type it in and be done, even if I re-record stuff. This could also be saved as a track template for future use and just recalled when I set my drums up again (if I was to use the exact same mic positions that is).
Reply
08-04-2009 05:40 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by airon
This is fairly specialized feature that a great deal of folks won't need.

Thus such a parameter should be hidden by default IMO. Great idea for anyone with external and internal gear that requires delays.
Actually I find myself often using this in Cubase.

E.g. when side-chaining, I draw trigger notes on grid, but have the whole
track delayed for -10ms, so that the side-chain compressor is in effect
on beat, but has a smooth 10ms attack time prior to beat.

A lot easier to have MIDI events snapped to grid, and better than delaying
all other tracks just for this IMO. Some compressors just don't have a
look-ahead function.
Reply
08-04-2009 07:45 AM
Human being with feelings
 
this feature would help multi-mic guitar sessions a lot !
Reply
08-05-2009 12:53 AM
56k 56k is offline
Human being with feelings
 
Can plugin " JS: Delay/time adjustment " do the job?
Reply
08-18-2009 05:13 PM
Human being with feelings
 
This feature is crucial for phase correction. Sure, you can turn off snapping and slide the clips, but that creates problems for future editing since the transients are no longer aligned. Using track delays allows phase alignment AND dead-on lined-up editing of tracks from a multi-mic session. Even if it's tucked into a dialog and not on the main display, it should still be there somewhere.
Reply
08-19-2009 06:14 AM
Human being with feelings
 
I voted yes, but this should be hidden by default (on MCP/TCP) and should be a right-click option, much like quantize record settings are.
Reply
08-21-2009 05:27 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
You could use track templates with a delay plugin of your choice having the most importable delay controls for tweaking shown on the mixer strip, you know :)
this is by far not the same, as we`re not talking about an audio delay. a normal audio delay can`t provide negative delays. what he means is essentially a trackbased, global time allignment, so you can shift the respective tracks timewise into negative ammounts, too.
if you work with programmed drums for example, say you have a bassdrum (on 1,2,3,4) and a snare (on 2+4)... you`d quantize both to grid, but the snare, whenever it hits the 2 and the 4 simultanesly with the bassdrum doesn`t audibly fit to the bassdrum, it just doesn`t sound good when they`re playing together ... now what you do to get instant satisfsction, is, you move the snare by ms or samples back or forth, until you hear fit, and that stays so for the whole project, as the quantizing isn`t affected ... this is a _very_ powerful, often overlooked and very underesthimated feature in general, as it affects the mix ... how often do you find yourself ending up with a mix that just won`t sound right, although you`ve done everything right? that might be the solution ... i saw a lot of engineers twisting a compressor or an eq to nuts just to get it sound right, but often you just don`t need to grab an eq or a compresor or both to make it sound good, just use the track delay until it sounds good, so the eq and compressors don`t have to be overabused ... tming is essential not only for groove, but also for frequency allignment of the tracks you have in your project, which greatly affects the sound of course ... the less you have to do with eq`s and compressors to _fix_ something, the better ...

so yes, +1billion for a trackbased delay, adjustable user selectable in ms or in samples ...
Reply
08-21-2009 05:30 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VariMu
This feature is crucial for phase correction. Sure, you can turn off snapping and slide the clips, but that creates problems for future editing since the transients are no longer aligned. Using track delays allows phase alignment AND dead-on lined-up editing of tracks from a multi-mic session. Even if it's tucked into a dialog and not on the main display, it should still be there somewhere.
that`s another very important reason, indeed.
it`s just basic and should be there in _every_ pro-considered sequencer.
Reply
08-21-2009 05:36 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 56k
Can plugin " JS: Delay/time adjustment " do the job?
just tried thatone, and indeed, it does exactly this, but it`s not reliable when realtime tweaked (which is essential for time and phase allignment). however, if you stop the sequencer and restart it, it works a it should ...
it`s a nice workaround, until the fature is there, imo ... :)
Reply
08-21-2009 05:37 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricM
Actually I find myself often using this in Cubase.

E.g. when side-chaining, I draw trigger notes on grid, but have the whole
track delayed for -10ms, so that the side-chain compressor is in effect
on beat, but has a smooth 10ms attack time prior to beat.

A lot easier to have MIDI events snapped to grid, and better than delaying
all other tracks just for this IMO. Some compressors just don't have a
look-ahead function.
yes, another one i did in logic always ... thatway you can control the response of the compressor greatly ...
Reply
09-10-2009 10:20 AM
Human being with feelings
 
For midi this is very important; a lot of samplebanks need 'predelay' to shift them some milliseconds in advance. FI classical instruments need some time to 'rise', double basses can take up to 100 milliseconds to deliver their fundamentals. With a predelay you can keep those midinotes on grid.
Reply
09-12-2009 01:34 PM
Human being with feelings
 
I agree. It is helpful for instruments with slow attacks. Though, "JS: Delay/time adjustment" is suitable for this purpose too.

BTW, how time adjustment plug-in works? Why don't we get huge amount of latency with negative delay times?
Reply
09-12-2009 01:40 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rennect
BTW, how time adjustment plug-in works? Why don't we get huge amount of latency with negative delay times?
Latency is usually no issue during mixing ...
Reply
09-12-2009 02:14 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rennect
I agree. It is helpful for instruments with slow attacks. Though, "JS: Delay/time adjustment" is suitable for this purpose too.
..it seems it is.. :) Pos and neg timeadjustment. Pos beeing pre-delay!
Reply
09-12-2009 10:53 PM
Human being with feelings
 
absolutely have it hidden by default.
tho i voted yes too.

if you want it globally shown per track, put a "show track delay [when space permits] on the mixer right click along with all other gui choices like sends and inserts and param knobs have a right click to show choice now.
Reply
09-13-2009 01:24 AM
Human being with feelings
 
I have been missing this FR.
"JS: Delay/time adjustment" doesn't work with midi tracks. Delay adjustment would be very needed for slow attack instruments.
cheers
Reply
09-13-2009 05:30 AM
Human being with feelings
 
this is a no brainer for a serious DAW.
Reply
09-13-2009 05:57 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Agreed +1000000, my realtime quantize plugin screams in need of having this feature built-in :)

- Mario
Reply
09-13-2009 07:52 AM
Human being with feelings
 
this would be a light version of a channel strip.
next time it will be a hi-pass filter fr and so on...

it would be better a new version of "JS: Delay/time adjustment" that would work in both audio and midi. plugins are always better 'cause don't use cpu when not loaded and don't force one user to work in the same way of another one.
Reply
09-13-2009 08:46 AM
Human being with feelings
 
When it comes to mixing, track delay is as fundamental as stereo panning. That's why it is integrated in many major DAWs.

Personally, I use integrated track delay control (in another DAW) more often than integrated pan control, because panning is more sophisticated fx and sometimes it's better to handle it with a plugin.

And properly implemented it won't use CPU when set to zero.
Reply
09-13-2009 10:57 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Track delay is a simple timing offset for media streaming, similar to manual shifting of your media items back/forward. And it should not use any cpu resources. Delay fx is a different thing. That's how I have understood it. But correct me if I'm wrong.
Reply
09-13-2009 05:37 PM
Human being with feelings
 
at the meantime you may want to use that
Reply
10-10-2009 03:09 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Great idea, would make haas mixing techniques easier
Reply
01-31-2010 02:43 PM
Human being with feelings
 
there needs to be a way of doing this in the plugin chain as well, for plugins which report the wrong latency for whatever reason. Redline eq is one
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