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Old 06-27-2017, 01:32 PM   #1
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Default Track Volumes, Messed up & Strange ..?[solved]

A few days ago, I prepared 6 songs to go on CD. I rendered them at 16-bit for the CD and my limiter was set at -0.5dB on all 6 songs.

When I loaded all 6 songs into Reaper to check them out, they all appeared to be okay, and indicated a maximum or -0.6dB, except for one song, which I messed up somehow and intend to fix it.

So all seemed to be okay, until yesterday when I loaded the project file I used to check them. Now they all indicated volume outputs of more than -0.6dB. I knew that couldn't be, but I didn't have time to deal with it then.

About 2 hours later when I loaded that same project file to check them, all the volumes seemed to okay and were reading -0.6dB, except for the one I need to remix. So I shrugged the earlier problems off as being a fluke.

However, when I loaded the project file up again today, the volumes were messed up again. So this time I decided to try a different install of Reaper, and the volumes showed right again. Below is a picture of the two different installs, on the left is a later version of Reaper V5.50rc2/x64, and on the right is v5.25/x64.



Incidentally, I rendered the songs at -0.5dB maximum but in Reaper they play back with an indication of -0.6dB, Reaper shows .1dB lower than the actual peaks, and has done this since as far back as I can remember.

Last edited by Tod; 06-29-2017 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 06-27-2017, 01:45 PM   #2
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I would suspect a change of project sample rate...that could cause a different level.
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Old 06-27-2017, 02:56 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bezusheist View Post
I would suspect a change of project sample rate...that could cause a different level.
Thanks bezusheist, I suspected that too, but both installs with the same project file have exactly the same settings in "Project Settings".

Same with Preferences>Audio>Settings.
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Old 06-27-2017, 03:16 PM   #4
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Stick with v5.25 for the moment?
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Old 06-27-2017, 06:30 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Stick with v5.25 for the moment?
Thanks DS, yeah, but I have suspicions it's not necessarily the version that's the problem.

I think my Reaper has become corrupted.

For example, I had serious problems with getting the midi editor to chase CCs and velocities. I spent several days trying to figure out what was wrong and finally suspected that the Reaper ini was corrupted. I replaced it with another Reaper ini file that did work, and that took care of the problem and so far, everything seems to work.

The big problem I have in replacing things like the ini file, is that this particular Reaper install is my main one and has all the changes I've made in the last several months or so. When I replaced the Reaper ini file about a month ago, I wasn't sure what would happen, but for the most part I managed to retain everything.

So I'm really wondering, what is the best way to repair/replace a corrupted Reaper. We have the "configuration" files, but I've found that configuration files take the problems along with them, and even though you can save certain individual aspects of the configuration, they seem to be intertwined in a way that makes it very difficult.
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Old 06-28-2017, 01:31 AM   #6
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Hi,
I don't know the theme you are using, but are you potentially somehow in recording mode on the right side? I see this "ar" button over the monitoring buttong which is different from the i/o button on the left shot...

g
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Old 06-28-2017, 06:51 AM   #7
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^^^^
It's the v3 default theme, isn't it? But it looks like the [ar] button size has been edited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Thanks DS, yeah, but I have suspicions it's not necessarily the version that's the problem.
I was only going on the levels in your screenshot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I think my Reaper has become corrupted.
...
So I'm really wondering, what is the best way to repair/replace a corrupted Reaper. We have the "configuration" files, but I've found that configuration files take the problems along with them, and even though you can save certain individual aspects of the configuration, they seem to be intertwined in a way that makes it very difficult.
It's a mystery to me why the same track in different Reaper versions should show different peak levels. I wouldn't expect an .ini file to affect that, either. What happens if you put a third-party peak meter plug-in on the tracks?

Perhaps you could post a small project (say, tracks 1 and 2, with a snippet of each rendered audio clip ) so we can see what levels we get here.

I cannot think of any way to repair the .ini file in this case. And, this won't be any immediate use, but I ZIP up all the.ini files every few days.
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Old 06-28-2017, 09:22 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianfini View Post
I don't know the theme you are using, but are you potentially somehow in recording mode on the right side? I see this "ar" button over the monitoring buttong which is different from the i/o button on the left shot...
Thanks Giangini, DS is right, I edited the picture on the left to fit with the one on the right and I grabbed it in the wrong place, so it's just an editing screwup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
It's a mystery to me why the same track in different Reaper versions should show different peak levels. I wouldn't expect an .ini file to affect that, either. What happens if you put a third-party peak meter plug-in on the tracks?
Good suggestion DS, I put a VU meter plugin on one of the tracks and it showed the same exact peak reading, so it appears Reapers meters are reading okay.

Quote:
Perhaps you could post a small project (say, tracks 1 and 2, with a snippet of each rendered audio clip ) so we can see what levels we get here.
Okay, I'll try to get to that right away.

Quote:
I cannot think of any way to repair the .ini file in this case. And, this won't be any immediate use, but I ZIP up all the.ini files every few days.
Good idea DS, heh heh, I don't know if this old brain can remember to do that.

I'll get a project file together asap.
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Old 06-28-2017, 10:42 AM   #9
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Okay, got a test project with 2 tracks with test items. It ended up around 5.6Meg so I put it on my google drive.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8s...ew?usp=sharing

I aslo included an image showing VU readings before and after moving the the cut and glued audio files. I did that because I had a feeling the levels might change when I moved them.

The two tracks on top were before moving the items, below shows after moving them into their current positions. Humm, for some reason the forum isn't picking up the image.

[img]/31022/Before%20%26%20After%20moving%20items%202.png[/img]

My Reaper is definitely messed up and I think that those who test it will have -0.6dB readings.
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Old 06-28-2017, 11:33 AM   #10
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Yep, both peaking at -0.6 dB here.

Post your .ini file or Send it to Support for Justin to have a look?
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Old 06-28-2017, 11:35 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Yep, both at -0.6 dB here.

Post your .ini file or Send it to Support for Justin to have a look?
Okay, I'll post it here first and thanks a million for your wonderful help.
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Old 06-28-2017, 11:46 AM   #12
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Here you go DS. I'm excited abut what you find, I've looked the ini files over a few times, but not knowing exactly what to look for, it was a bit overwhelming.

/31023/reaper.zip

Thanks much.

PS: Wow, nothing posted in the "stash" seems to be working today. So I'll just attach it.

Last edited by Tod; 07-08-2022 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 06-28-2017, 02:43 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Yep, both peaking at -0.6 dB here.
I can confirm that (pre5.5rc4, Win10 64bit). Looked at your ini also, but haven't found s.th. (for me) obvious, but I'm no ini-expert. But I at least wanted to try.
Have you compared several ini versions from your system with the notepad++ compare plugin?
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Old 06-28-2017, 03:30 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Here you go DS. I'm excited abut what you find, I've looked the ini files over a few times, but not knowing exactly what to look for, it was a bit overwhelming.

/31023/reaper.zip

Thanks much.

PS: Wow, nothing posted in the "stash" seems to be working today. So I'll just attach it.
Hold on a moment - I didn't say that I could understand all the stuff in the .ini file! Perhaps Justin / schwa could see something.


Stash problems? Your screenshot one was not an image, it's a page. This link worked:
https://stash.reaper.fm/v/31022/Befo...0items%202.png
As does https://stash.reaper.fm/v/31022/Befo...0items%202.png

Quote:
[ URL="https://stash.reaper.fm/v/31022/Before%20%26%20After%20moving%20items%202.png"]https://stash.reaper.fm/v/31022/Before%20%26%20After%20moving%20items%202.png[/URL]
As does [ url]https://stash.reaper.fm/v/31022/Before%20%26%20After%20moving%20items%202.png[/url]
( with a space added before the url tag
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Old 06-28-2017, 07:51 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pet View Post
I can confirm that (pre5.5rc4, Win10 64bit). Looked at your ini also, but haven't found s.th. (for me) obvious, but I'm no ini-expert. But I at least wanted to try.
Have you compared several ini versions from your system with the notepad++ compare plugin?
Thanks Pet, yes, I use notepad++ for all Reaper and script things. But I'm sure as you know, it's hard to know what to look for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Hold on a moment - I didn't say that I could understand all the stuff in the .ini file! Perhaps Justin / schwa could see something.

Stash problems? Your screenshot one was not an image, it's a page. This link worked:
https://stash.reaper.fm/v/31022/Befo...0items%202.png
As does https://stash.reaper.fm/v/31022/Befo...0items%202.png

( with a space added before the url tag
Thanks DS, I might send Justin and schwa the ini file, it's just that they are so busy with other things I hate to put this on them. We'll see, I have to think about that. I think there is a flaw or flaws in Reaper that can allow this to happen, but trying to run it down will almost be impossible.

Regarding the links, I just posted them in stash, just like I always do, then copied the links. I'll have to check out the links you posted to see if I can figure it out, but that will have to wait until tomorrow.

Thanks to all of you, and especially to you DS, you have a great deal of wisdom and are so willing to share it.
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Old 06-29-2017, 12:15 AM   #16
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i noticed that in your screenshot there is the green "i" icon. (media item button)
should this show up for me when i load/open your project ?
in (your project) preferences the box is selected for "item properties only if resampled media".
i also noticed the sample rate box was not checked in project settings, which would leave it open to change/follow audio device.
sorry to keep on about the SRC, but to me it seems like the most logical answer to this type of level change.

edit: the files you posted are the original "source" files ? could you post one of those rendered from the project that shows them at a higher peak level (32 bit float because they are over 0) ? are they rendered at that higher peak level or do they render at the original level ?

Also, I know absolutely nothing about windows, .ini files, asio, and wasapi...but...I noticed in the .ini file that asio and wasapi were different sample rates. Don't know if it matters or effects anything.
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Old 06-29-2017, 09:32 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bezusheist View Post
i noticed that in your screenshot there is the green "i" icon. (media item button)
should this show up for me when i load/open your project ?
in (your project) preferences the box is selected for "item properties only if resampled media".
i also noticed the sample rate box was not checked in project settings, which would leave it open to change/follow audio device.
sorry to keep on about the SRC, but to me it seems like the most logical answer to this type of level change.
Thanks bezusheist, I've seen that green button before but didn't pay any attention to it. You're right, I do have the box checked for "item properties only if resampled media".

Quote:
i also noticed the sample rate box was not checked in project settings, which would leave it open to change/follow audio device.
Aha, that's it. I don't know how that box got unchecked but it did somehow. Phew, now I can go back to work with full confidence.

Yah know what's strange is, in the Reaper install that was reading the peaks correctly, it was also set the same way, both in Preferences and Project Settings, yet it doesn't have the little green box with the"i", and still reads the peaks correctly?

Another revelation, when I went back to the project that I posted here, it still had the "Project sample rate" unchecked, but it was also reading the peaks correctly now too and the little green boxes were gone. So that project was being affected by the main project where I got the audio slices from.

Again, thanks a lot bezusheist, my face is a little red right now but like I said, I can now move on with my confidence back.

Also thanks to all the helped, I guess I can say this is solved.
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Old 06-29-2017, 09:50 AM   #18
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bezusheist - well spotted

But .... is it to be expected that resampling an audio file changes the levels? That doesn't sound right to me.

Looking at those two audio clips, both are 44,100Hz, 16 bits. Most of the sample rates in your .ini files were 44100, but I did see 'ks_srate=48000' and 'wasapi_srate=48000'. Tod, which one were you using when the problem was noticed?
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Old 06-29-2017, 10:48 AM   #19
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Cool, glad I could help out, I like to try and problem solve.

I'm not exactly sure how this all works, or if it's different on Mac/PC, but I think that if you don't have the box checked next to sample rate in project settings, the sample rate "defaults" to what is in device settings / preferences.
I think the device setting "follows" the audio device if you do not select a sample rate there in preferences. ( it uses whatever your audio device used last.)
This has almost caught me a few times, but I caught it right away because I see the "i" icon.
Now I just make sure to set my rate in project settings and check that box...

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Old 06-29-2017, 11:12 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
But .... is it to be expected that resampling an audio file changes the levels? That doesn't sound right to me.
yes.

have you tried the new-ish sinc interpolation waveform view in Reaper yet ? (it's nice )
take a look what happens when you apply 2x SRC to this waveform...



basically, changing the sample rate changes the samples on the waveform, so the peak level can change.
another thing to consider is if a minimum phase filter is used, you could have an increase in level due to phase shift and/or "ringing".
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Old 06-29-2017, 11:38 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
bezusheist - well spotted

But .... is it to be expected that resampling an audio file changes the levels? That doesn't sound right to me.

Looking at those two audio clips, both are 44,100Hz, 16 bits. Most of the sample rates in your .ini files were 44100, but I did see 'ks_srate=48000' and 'wasapi_srate=48000'. Tod, which one were you using when the problem was noticed?
Hi DS, I'm not sure what "ks_srate" is but all my projects are 44.1k unless I'm working on video, then I'll sometimes us 48k. And I always use ASIO.

I record almost everything at 44.1k at 24-bits. I rendered these songs at 44.1k-16bit to go on a CD.

In Preferences>Audio>Device I've got the sample rate set to 44.1k and when ever I've checked my interface config, it's also at 44.1k. However, one thing I don't have checked is "Request sample rate:", I'm not sure what that is, does that mean request sample rate from my interface?

Thanks guys.
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Old 06-29-2017, 11:55 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bezusheist View Post
yes.

have you tried the new-ish sinc interpolation waveform view in Reaper yet ? (it's nice )
take a look what happens when you apply 2x SRC to this waveform...


basically, changing the sample rate changes the samples on the waveform, so the peak level can change.
another thing to consider is if a minimum phase filter is used, you could have an increase in level due to phase shift and/or "ringing".
I'm assuming "SRC" stands for Sample Rate Change"? How did you get the doubled SRC?

Regarding filters, I may have a high pass filter on some of my mixes, I'm not afraid to use it but I only use it when I have an indication that I have some low end that should/could go.

Incidentally, I will definitely be keeping an eye out for that "i" from now on.
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Old 06-29-2017, 12:38 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I'm assuming "SRC" stands for Sample Rate Change"? How did you get the doubled SRC?
yes, sample rate conversion.
the source file & project were 44.1 kHz and i rendered a file to 88.2 kHz (changed the sample rate in render dialogue options).

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Regarding filters, I may have a high pass filter on some of my mixes, I'm not afraid to use it but I only use it when I have an indication that I have some low end that should/could go.
ah, sorry, i should be more specific...the filter i was speaking of is the "anti-aliasing" (low pass) filter used in the SRC process. but yes, min. phase HPF can alter the level in the same way (via phase shift).
the level boost should only be of concern if you were in some kind of loudness contest or something ridiculous like that...
i'm just concerned with how it sounds...you know...like most other sane people...
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Old 06-29-2017, 01:10 PM   #24
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yes, sample rate conversion.
the source file & project were 44.1 kHz and i rendered a file to 88.2 kHz (changed the sample rate in render dialogue options).
Okay thanks again bezusheist.

So I've got another question for you guys. I'm currently working on samples with a 192k sample rate, is it enough for me to just set the sample rate in Project Settings, is there more that I should do?

Of course when I render them, I will render ate 192k.

One thing I notice is that, even if I set the Project Settings at 192k to match the samples, the samples still have the green "i" icon? Also the same when I setup Preferences for a 192k sample rate?

My interface only goes to 96k.
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Old 06-29-2017, 02:32 PM   #25
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i think the audio device determines the "max" sample rate you can use for real-time playing/recording/processing. so if the project is at a higher sample rate, it is converted to the audio device's rate.
i'm not sure if it matters with an offline render, though, or how it applies to effects/processing. it might just go with the project sample rate. ( i would have to check to be sure).
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Old 06-29-2017, 03:14 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bezusheist View Post
i think the audio device determines the "max" sample rate you can use for real-time playing/recording/processing. so if the project is at a higher sample rate, it is converted to the audio device's rate.
i'm not sure if it matters with an offline render, though, or how it applies to effects/processing. it might just go with the project sample rate. ( i would have to check to be sure).
Thanks bezusheist, and yeah, I'm not recording with it and of course the sample rate is being changed through my interface when I play it, but I'm still hearing it okay.

The only thing I plan to do with the samples is to edit them, render them as individual samples, then program them into Kontakt.

After that it will just be a matter of zipping them and sending them to the developer.

I think the only problem I might have is saving them, but if I render them offline at 192K, they should be fine, what do you all think?
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